Signs of water pump going out?

[ytd1861]

03 Bonneville SE is running what I consider too hot.

CAR HAS ONLY 77,000 original miles

I tried to burp the cooling system using the air bleeder valve on the thermo housing after installing a 180 stat. It did not seem to help at all. A little air hissed out but not much. I'd let it percolate fluid only out for about 2 minutes to hopefully kick any air pockets out. No luck it seems....

Also, my fans will come on when the gauge shows about 215, but they are super quiet. I have looked to see if they are actually turning and they are, but they seem to be turning slowly. I had a 2005 Monte Carlo LS with aftermarket PCM - 180 thermostat. The fans were noticeable when they came on or were running...I mean they BLEW some air. These seem like they engage and only spin in what you might call low mode, never going fast or making much audible noise.

Mods that might matter: 180 thermostat, aftermarket tune for running a 180 stat, fans set to come on at 185, new Dex-cool, clean and new like 2 weeks old, the old Dex_cool that was drained/flushed did not look bad at all.

I have signs of a valve cover leak but oil is good and clean looking, no milk, nothing to indicate a bad upper or lower intake gasket. Just saying...

Car has ZERO coolant leaking on the thermo housing, radiator hoses, block, on the ground, no coolant from weep-hole on water pump. If its leaking I don't know where. I have not had to add coolant since my professionally done flush and refill with new coolant. My PCM programmer mentioned a method to burp the cooling system by removing the top heater hose where it connects right under the alternator...as usual my fat ass hands can't work in that tight area.

I've tried to burp the car using this method: car is dead cold, checked coolant in reservoir and radiator, both were full- reservoir was a touch above COLD FULL line. Put radiator cap back on, started car and let it warm up, *** it warms up quickly from dead cold to about 180-ish * this takes about 3-4 minutes at idle, but just as long/short of time if I start driving somewhere. At driving in town speeds with stop and go it takes another 5 - 8 minutes to hit the 200 mark or 1 line above it.*** Makes no difference if AC is on (fans on), or off, heater on or off either.

My radiator has been flushed 1 x by a professional garage I trust. The radiator does show some crud if you take radiator cap off and look in there. It's not super thick, but I can see it. Also, I installed a brand new Stant 16 lb. radiator cap 2 weeks ago as well.

I'm almost to the point of buying a new radiator, water pump, and fans to make SURE its all corrected.

Can anyone point me in a less costly direction please? I don't want to burn my car up. Summer is coming fast. I live in a hot and HUMID area of the USA (near Memphis, TN). I use my air conditioner a lot. Right now, I think the first 90 plus degree day will fry the car! Even though the car runs warm, the few warm and humid days we've had around 80 to 85 degrees and the air conditioner does great. I mean it will make me chilly pretty quick and I am a BIG dude at 375 pounds, so I stay hot. Heater blows hot too, not cold like it's got airloc? I'm lost...............

[nos4blood70]

Try to burp it one more time with the car's front end elevated. On a hill, a jack whatever. If there is any air in the system that may be stuck somewhere. That may help to get it out.

Otherwise I'll leave this to the more knowledgable regarding the water pump itself.

[MattStrike]

You'd have to see if the system is actually building up pressure. Also monitor your coolant to see if it's starting to use any. It sounds to me as if a leak is just starting, probably in the LIM or UIM, but hasn't gotten bad enough to be easily noticed unless you can verify the cooling system is building up pressure the way it should.

[00Beast]

Are you going off of the factory gauge? The gauge is designed to point straight up at the 200* mark between 180* and 221*, so it doesn't freak people out jumping around all of the time.

[nubuilder]

Are you going off of the factory gauge? The gauge is designed to point straight up at the 200* mark between 180* and 221*, so it doesn't freak people out jumping around all of the time.

Is there a way to change this through reprogramming the computer? I hate that it does this.

[sandrock]

No, no way of programming it out. Unlike the older Bonnevilles that used two seperate elements in a single housing, the 00-up went back to a single element that reports to the PCM, which then spits the data out through Class II. The cluster sees the Class II data and sorts what it sees to the various gauges.

[ytd1861]

Yes, I am using the factory gauge. I thought with my aftermarket PCM which sets the fans to come on at 185, the gauge should be lower than the 200 it sits on.

How else can I tell the TRUE temperature of the system then?

[Trinity]

Just drill the thermostat....

[ytd1861]

Trinity: Thermostat was drilled with 2 small holes. I did that when I took out the original 195 stat. I use to do this on all my thermostats in case they ever got stuck, and to let an air out.....slowly!

One thing....the parking lot in my apt complex is not flat, nor does it angle uphill, but downhill! I bet this is some of the issue....it's probably got a good 2-3 degree downward slope at the front of the car due to the parking lot.

I guess sometimes an obvious issue is right in front of you. I'll go somewhere and elevate the nose and try re-burping it.

[Trinity]

This is curious... When I went to that thermostat, I saw ruffly the same lvels like I had with the original in the car. In fact I pulled it out and went down one more and now she runs nice and cool. I have 160 in there and the fan programmed for it too. I get no engine lights for too cool and she never touches 200 anymore. If it's hot (so far only about 80) and I work it hard I see maybe 180.

With the car running this cool it needs to be worked a bit to keep it dry. I take a road trip with her once a week for a couple hours running her at 70. I like to get out and do this anyway, so it's not an imposition. I'm just telling you if you should decide to drop down to 160, you will need to drive other than city stop and go to keep evap working correctly. There is a reason they have them run a bit hot, but I don't like my cars running 215. If something does go wrong with the system at that temp you are in trouble very quickly. If I see mine getting to 200 I know something is wrong and have more time to get it off the road before the heat gets critical... but that's just me.

[DaMaroon]

$500 for gas and 3600 miles a year . Not for me.

Back in the day gasket sets for small block Chevys came with metal insert you could put in to keep heat from the exhaust warming the manifold plenum. Great for drag racing but not so much for winter driving.

In your situation the EFI may well keep everything good but wonder if it would effect Trim or the combustion process enough it could be read on the plugs. Guess I'm thinking carbon. Seems like it could cause fouling if the plugs aren't running hot enough.

Other thoughts, if the engine doesn't come up to temp the rings may not seal correctly. Increasing blow by. Decreasing compression. The piston may not get big enough in the bore and rock or slap. Some pistons aren't even round at room temperatures. Maybe not until operating temperature. YMMV

[ytd1861]

The 180 thermostat is as low as I want to go. I learned last night from another poster on here that the gauges in these are cars are programmed/set to read around 200 degrees. So if I have an air problem (OR NOT), it's good to read 200-ish under normal operating conditions. I was under the impression that an aftermarket PCM programmed for fans to come on at 185 and a good cooling system would show as temps around 175-185 on my gauge, but apparently it will not....stays the same irritating 200 or so. I assume once a problem gets real bad and the gauge rises above 200, you're screwed quickly!

GM/Pontiac....that was the worst idea of a real gauge I've ever known in a car! This thing is no more helpful than the idiot lights that come on and off where a gauge would be.

I'm going to take it to someone with a scanner this weekend and see what he can find out.

[Trinity]

I found the thermo to be pretty close, but do see some variance the poster was talking about with relation to my Aeroforce. The mileage is no better than I was getting with the warmer thero as I get 28-9 on the highway and a ugly 16-18 in town depending on my right foot. As to the plugs and how the combustion is working... it seems to be fine. I will pull a plug today and take some pics. It's making gobs of HP for the setup that I have in it, I wouldn't expect anymore. I might do a 0-60 run today and video it for ya. She's rocking pretty good.

I'm not saying what I'm doing is the best or even the "proper" way to set one up, I've always been a seat of the pants, road less traveled type, and tend to read everything I can get my hands on and then decide which way to go.

As always, I do appreciate other thoughts and experience, I am by no means an authority on the 3800.

[sandrock]

The PCM will always see "true" coolant temp, the cluster just happens to get a binary representation of what the PCM wants it to see, so scan gauges are good for this sort of thing.

Also, putting in a 180* thermostat does not necessarily mean the car will stay at 180*. All that means is the thermostat will open at 180*. The cooling fan turn on temps, however, are still programmed to turn on at factory temps. Those with programmers or have their PCMs tuned will have their fan temps set to reflect whatever thermostat they've chosen. Only then will the engine run cooler.

[ytd1861]

sandrock:

Can you recommend any good handheld OBDII readers, or scan gauges, capable of seeing the engine temps, etc. ?

Inexpensive is always best, but good.

Do I need one I can/ have to update for troublecodes,etc?

[Trinity]

TC On http://youtu.be/KdK5ZVCxgZ4

TC Off http://youtu.be/74qLxky-pWs

Pulled a plug and if and they look, if anything, a bit lean. My trims are also on the lean side which I really don't understand other than needed to send PCM back to make sure the N * stuff is correct and if all okay tell them to richen it up a bit. Really, what I need now is to get it done local, if there was such a beast.

[DaMaroon]

Just playing devils advocate. Engineers try to figure out what the best compromises are for us. Then we try to make compromises that fit are needs. Not always successfully. I found out a long time ago why it's a bad idea to run without a thermostat. Even temporarily.