Front Subframe Woes

[KM AXer]

The car: 1993 Bonneville SSE, 144K miles

Has been in the family since new, and I'd like to have it and keep it on the road. But this problem seems tough for my brother (current owner) to deal with. If I can find the parts, I'd be willing to invest the labor to keep the car going, it really is great with no body rust, a nice interior, runs well, and everything still works. This car was Ziebart rustproofed when new, and the unibody is excellent. But the subframe.... Not good!

I looked at a couple of older threads, but they seemed to be about unibody issues where the subframe bushings mount. The Dorman kit referred to in one thread shows as not being compatible for our car, btw.

For this car, the issue appears to be the subframe itself. Rust weakened the subframe attachment points so badly, that the still intact bushings pulled right through all four rear mount spots on left and right sides. The subframe is pretty much dangling under the car now, slightly held up by the rear-most washer on the right side. GMPartsDirect.com tells me that the subframe is no longer available, although most of the bushings and other hardware are. The top cup is, I am told, out of production though.

If the only option is to remove the subframe and repair it, that is something that will probably not be possible. However, if there is a new one available aftermarket, or even a great condition used one, a full swap-out should be able to be accomplished. 6 all new bushing kits would be used.

So I have started this thread hoping that someone can lead me to a source for a subframe for the car. I invested in a factory shop manual via eBay, and it outlines what needs to be done to change the subframe. I do not have the J 28467-A engine support of course, but do have access to a standard cherry-picker crane to support the drive train while the subframe is off. No, I don't have a lift, this would be a project accomplished using the basic home mechanic's tools.

Is there a new subframe available?
Has someone on this list (or connected to it somehow) dismantled a car and kept a very good subframe I could buy?
(edit) Is there anyone on this list in the Dayton, OH area who has experience with this issue, parts, advice, a shop, anything? (end edit)

Thanks for your time everyone.

Alan Sheidler
Rochester Hills, Michigan
(car is currently S. of Dayton, OH)

Thought I'd add photos of the problem...





Ugly, innit?

[motopsyco]

if its just the subframe you need, I'd start hitting the junkyards, its a pretty common body typs and other cars should use the same subframe. I doubt you'll be able to find a new or nos (new old stock) one around, i'm sure some people might have them but finding them could be nearly impossible.

[MattStrike]

Junkyard. Maybe craigslist.

Be prepared that it may take some time to find one that is not already needing repairs as well.

Without seeing how bad yours is, I think it might be easier to take the one you have to a welder to get it repaired. Or buy a MIG and fix it yourself. The bushings are fit to prevent movement in all directions, and have metal collars that like to rust out with the subframe. If you have it repaired, make sure the new holes are fit to the new bushings, no slop. You can use the Dorman part here if you have it repaired, just fit the holes to the Dorman bushings.

[KM AXer]

Junkyard. Maybe craigslist.

Be prepared that it may take some time to find one that is not already needing repairs as well.

Without seeing how bad yours is, I think it might be easier to take the one you have to a welder to get it repaired. Or buy a MIG and fix it yourself. The bushings are fit to prevent movement in all directions, and have metal collars that like to rust out with the subframe. If you have it repaired, make sure the new holes are fit to the new bushings, no slop. You can use the Dorman part here if you have it repaired, just fit the holes to the Dorman bushings.

OK I am going to spend a little time trying to find one via the boneyards. GM does not have one, and neither does VintageParts Inc. Repairing the original seems silly, since the 4 holes are ripped out to as big as the bushings. The fronts may be in pretty bad shape also. Then getting new mount holes in the correct locations is problematic. Plus, the time it would take... Really, if I had a shop and the ability to yank this car down and leave it apart a long time, I "might" do that, but what I really need is a part that I can just swap in in a day or two. One of the yards I contacted said they have 3 of the cars. They'll be calling me to let me know what kind of shape they are in.

Part of the problem here is time, my brother owns the car now, and he is getting antsy about having it gone from his house. Since I am over 200 miles away, I can't just snag it and wait to find the part. I have a good friend who lives about 4 miles from my brother, and he has the garage space to do the work, but I would not want to ask him to store the car for me while I do a parts hunt.

Seriously, I am trying to keep the car from heading off to the scrap yard!

[Jrs3800]

If you are looking for a subframe for the 93 look at these cars...

1992-1999 Bonneville, 92-99 Buick Lesabre, 92-99 Olds 88/ 88 LSS... These should all be a direct swap

[MattStrike]

Get the used subframe and new bushings ready ahead of time, so that when you get the car it's a much faster turn around.

Usually the reason they rust holes the size of the bushings is that the 'crud' gets held and ground in. Mine were just as bad. When I started cutting, they were only thin about 1/4" beyond the rust hole.

Another thing I just remembered, you will likely need a torch or MIG/arc welder and a large pipe wrench. Those bolts like to snap off as they tend to rust to almost nothing inside the bushing. So PB blaster the crap out of them the night before if you can. If one breaks, leave the extraction until the rusty subframe is out of the way.

Check the link to my SSEi restoration thread in my signature, I showed there how to extract a bolt once the head breaks off. Somewhere I have a video of how stubborn that little M10 was.

[Roadrunner]

I may be of some help.
I was the unfortunate one to first post about subframe woes on the old site back in '06.

My 93 was pretty much the way you describe your car - sheet metal and body in good shape but enlarged rotted out holes in subframe. I searched junk yards for a while but the better ones I found always had bushings with the metal casing rotted out. When you tried to remove the old bushing, pieces of subframe would come off with it.
My 92 also needed a subframe so my solution was as follows:

Since I needed to do 2 cars, I had some stainless steel washer type pieces laser cut as shown.


Bought larger half of a subframe from a junk yard (early 90's frames are two-piece design and the larger half holds 5 of the 6 bushings).
Welded the stainless pieces in, cleaned & painted it, and slapped it on the 93 with new bushings.

I then took the frame from the 93 and started to do the same repair so I could put it on the 92.
I never completed the job on the 92 (lost enthusiasm since too many cars and non-supercharged got least amount of love).

I just dug it out today to see where I left off and got some pics of current state.
Stainless steel pieces have been TIG welded into the four #2 and #3 positions.
The original bushing is still in #1 (front) position (probably thought it was good enough for intended use).
Looks like I stopped in the middle of sandblasting (~10% done)





I am on the north side of Cincinnati
I also have a bunch of new & used bushings and hardware that was intended to complete this job.

Let me know if interested.

[KM AXer]

I may be of some help.
Let me know if interested.

Eh...

YES!

Will PM!

Thank you for the response!

[Bugsi]

It just blows me away when members step in out of the blue to help other members like this.
Thanks to all the people that have sent me parts over the years!
Make sure to follow up here with how your repair goes.

[KM AXer]

So the project is progressing.

My old buddy Vern picked up the main subframe part and lots of small stuff from Mark, and I am told that it is a solidly repaired unit. Thanks, Mark!

I've today ordered some bushings and metal parts from GMPartsDirect.com, hoping to get all of it soon. BTW, this is an FE2 suspension car...

After it arrives, I'll be driving to Dayton, and from there on it is all hard work. I can be such a fool, I seem to forget between projects how much trouble they can be. Ahh well, it is the satisfaction afterwards that lasts, etc. Someone told me long ago that if women did not forget about the pain of labor that they'd never have one more than one child!

So I am going to try and post a photo or two that my brother sent me of the car. Thanks again for all of the help and advice I have received so far.

Alan





It worked!

[Jrs3800]

I love that Medium Garnet Red Metallic.... Nothing like it...

[KM AXer]

Hooray!
Two days of hard work, and lots of help from many people, and the car is repaired and here with me in Michigan. I'll be titling and plating it this week. There are a few interior issues I'll be asking about on this forum after a while... In a few days I should have a photos up which show how bad it once was, and how good it is now. Thanks again to all who helped in any way, and in particular to Roadrunner for the fair deal on the rebuilt subframe and related parts. I'm stoked!

Alan

[Jrs3800]

That car is just Beautiful.... I always wanted a 95 SSE just like that.... Glad to hear you got her repaired...

[95naSTA]

I love that Medium Garnet Red Metallic.... Nothing like it...

x2 That's my favorite 92-95 color by far.

Good to see this car staying on the road.

[KM AXer]

The Parts Diagram:



Here are a few photos I took during the past week:







Brought it to the work location on the trailer. With the bushings so very bad, I was afraid to drive the car even a few miles.



A clear shot of the extent of the problem, left side.



#2 position bushing removed. Note how solid the body is. This car was Ziebart rustproofed when new. With 144K miles in 20 years, you can guess that it was not run hard. It was garaged when at home until a month ago. Unfortunately, it will not have a garage space here in Michigan, but I will try to limit winter/snow driving.

BTW, the threads portion of the bushing mount bolts were CLEAN! I am grateful for that, they all came out without a problem. I tossed most of them, though, due to being rusted solid to what was left of some of the other parts.



New bushings set up in the redone subframe. My Cincy buddy Vern had power washed and painted it for me, then helped me get it under the car. From there on, I was on my own, though. Getting some bolts in was Tough! Inexplicably, the one which took the longest was on the gear end of the steering rack. Frustrating. A few expletives (ok, more than a few) were used.



Driver's side, close to being bolted up. Nice New Parts! Those bundt pan shaped "spacers" had been quite nasty on both sides in the #2 and #3 positions. In a couple, the center posts were pretty much gone. The others were severely rotted. I wish I had taken a picture or two of them. Considering that they support the center of the bushings, they are pretty critical. The front right one, along with all of the parts in that #1 location, was great after 20 years. Yes, those are exhaust clamps back there on the pipe. It had separated at a weld, and my brother put in an inner pipe as a temporary measure. I'll get it welded back together.




Factory recommended was 66 Foot Pounds, but I only did them to 62. I figured that with the anti-seize I had put on the threads, I should take off a little torque.



Back on the ground, with a swept up garage floor. No, the paint is not funky on the hood, that is dust. The fenders were cleaned off by my clothing... In MI there is no front plate, so the mount for it was removed, allowing the SSE logo on the front bumper to be seen! LOL I have tried twice to crop out my brother's posterior, but with no success. It does not show that way in Photobucket.... I give up. Enjoy!



What a great looking car, at the Michigan homestead!



Welcome to our little slice of country in the city, Bonne! I hope you can handle being based on a dirt road. Fortunately, it is only a couple of hundred yards to pavement. My 18 y/o son calls it a "cool car". I've always thought that. Long live the SSE!

Again, thanks to those on this list who have helped, encouraged, or just said nice thigs about this car.

Without such help, this one might just have wound up in a scrap yard, or worse.

I'll be very happy to reciprocate in any way I can.

This posting edited with new photo links 7/2/14

[Jrs3800]

I just love that car...

The son loves it Eh? well in that case he is in his right mind and a cool kid....Be Proud

[Roadrunner]

Lookin good!
I actually put that frame in the scrap bin when I was spring cleaning one time, but then I changed my mind. Glad to see it find a home.
About torque and anti sieze - I had a problem with a couple bolts backing out after a few months. I think my 92 manual said 75~80 ft-lb but I ended up going to 90 with very little lube. You may want to keep an eye on it for a little while.

I love that Medium Garnet Red Metallic.... Nothing like it...

Is that med garnet red metallic?
The pics you had earlier kind of looked like it but in these it looks like bright red.
Either way, I like it.

... The son loves it Eh? well in that case he is in his right mind and a cool kid....Be Proud

X2 on that one

[crash93ssei]

Good to see this one back on the road!

[Damar79]

I was wondering if anyone knew how to fix this problem

[img][/imghttps://get.google.com/u/0/albumarchive/113365164720242147659/album/AF1QipORZgQwCRJh6Hfwc31-AvN3oGofCsTrTgAwusVx

[SSEBonne4evr]

This is an old thread, please start a new one.

The link does not work.....