No start issue - fuel pump not running - SOLVED! - Now NOT!

[badgoat]

I have a 1998 SSEi that my wife bought new (Maine lic plate = SSEI) and I bought after she rolled it on it's side a few years ago (separate long story). Despite it's run hard/ put up wet life, I love the car. Unfortunately it's getting near life end with 162K miles but only due to the onset of rust issues. Since the car has had a couple of issues on the road, I now use it for local travel. We purchased a 2004 Bonneville GXP for longer trips. Anyway I digress.

Last spring the car refused to start on the way back from Boston (Sox lost after 17 innings) and we had AAA tow it home. Once home it started up but left me stranded on an almost daily basis for non starts. Then it began to stall when running as well. If you waited a bit it would start and run no problem. It sat all summer until I had time to bring it in for a fuel pump. After the fuel pump was installed the car stalled while running - 3 times on its maiden trip and occasionally after that. Based on info from this site, I replaced the crank sensor with one I had from a parts car. Since then I've run it quite a bit and things have gone well....except this Sunday after a 50 mile trip, I stopped and it would not start. Definitely no sound of the fuel pump running. I turned the key about 4 times, spaced a minute apart. The last time I heard the pump and off we went. Currently it seems if I hear the pump then the car will always start and I haven't had a stalling issue since the crank sensor. It also seems that the problem may be worse when the outside temp is higher. Maybe I'm all set with the cold Maine weather kicking in????

I do have a parts car so switching in parts from that is not an issue. I'm thinking pump relay? PCM? But before I try anything I wanted to get input from you guys as to the most likely thing I should try. Thanks in advance!

[Archon]

Have you checked the driver's side ground bus?





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[badgoat]

I brought the car home tonight to put snow tires on. While it was in the garage I figured I would check the ground buss. When I went to start it to move it back away from the lift - you guessed it - no start. I checked the ground buss and it looks fine. I swapped fog light relay and fuel pump relay (same #) and no luck. I jumped the relay connections (left bottom to right top) and nothing. I pounded on the fuel tank and the next try the pump came on. So either the issue "reset" itself at the same time by coincidence or the new NAPA pump is the culprit...

[badgoat]

Decided to take a 2nd look at the ground busses. There was some corrosion on the drivers side one. Passanger was clean as a whistle. Fuel pump ran no problem with the buss out of either one???

[badgoat]

Car died on me on the road on Sunday. This time the pump did not restart. When we went to push it into the garage the pump did not come on the 1st 2 times I turned the key. When I turned the key and shifted out of park it came on. We replaced the pump and it started fine. It died before I got 3/10 of a mile. Pulled it back into the driveway and when I left it the pump still wouldn't run. Any ideas what to do next?

[Mechanical Mike]

I'd check for power at the fuel pump relay. Should have 12 volts for 2 seconds when the key is turned to run & continuous power while in start position. Can you hear/feel the relay click when the key is turned? Did the NAPA pump come with a new electrical connector for the pump?

If I remember correctly the ground for the SSEi isn’t at the ground bus, it has a control module in the trunk. I’m heading for work right now but if you PM me with an email address I can send you a wiring diagram in the morning.

[badgoat]

Here's the latest.

Summary:
1. Installed new NAPA pump - still cuts out.
2. Jumped out pump relay as well as substituting fog lamp relay - neither helped non running pump.
3. Cleaned both ground busses - not an issue with the supercharged cars fuel circuit as Mechanic Mike points out above.
4. Installed 2nd NAPA pump - went less then 1/2 mile....
5. Sustituted pump control module from 97 parts car - cut out 3x in about 10 miles.

What's left? I can get an PCM for $159 but still have the hassle of getting it flashed. Wish the 97 had the same PCM...

This post had some good info with the exception the the fuel pump speed control is actually on the drivers side....http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... hilit=fuel pump control

[MattStrike]

My thoughts? VATS is a factor.

Get a simple DMM. Monitor the control circuits for the pump, both before and and after the relay. Need to verify that the +12v is actually getting through the relay and to the pump.

[badgoat]

Appreciate the input. Wouldn't VATS keep it from cranking as well? I've been thinking of putting in a jumper to the pump with a switch in the car to bypass everything when the pump kicks out....

[motopsyco]

vats only shuts off the injectors and i think maybe the ingnition, at least when dealing with my 89 firebird. The car will still crank over during a vats issue. Although i also had a pcm issue with that car that tied into fuel pump problems, i didnt know it was a computer issue til I replaced it for a different problem I thought was computer related. Might be worth going to a junkyard or check ebay for a used computer for your car and see if that helps

[Mechanical Mike]

What's the part number of the pump that NAPA is giving you?

[RPACODY]

basic but don't see a mention of a fuel filter with the new pump or fuel pressure reading

[MattStrike]

I thought there was a fuel pump relay that was controlled by VATS as well, but there's a lot of wiring that I had to do (twice) and may be confusing it with something else. I do know that the PCM takes a PWM signal from the VATS to enable the injectors, and the VATS controls an ignition relay.

[Bob Dillon]

vats only shuts off the injectors and i think maybe the ingnition, at least when dealing with my 89 firebird. The car will still crank over during a vats issue.

Nope, not true for H-bodies. No crank with a bad VATS and security light will come on for a few minutes. There are two types of VATS systems-those that have failed and those that are going to.

Jump it before it does.

[badgoat]

I had to walk away from this thru the holidays as I had no time and was too frustrated. It finally go to the point the pump wasn't coming on at all - good from a troubleshooting perspective. I unplugged the connector to the sending unit and the pump worked when I plugged it back in. I took a close look at the connector and saw that I'd opened up the connections when I pushed in a couple of ring nails in order to connect my boost box to drain the tank when replacing the pumps. Squeezed these with a pair of pliers and I KNEW that was going to be it. However, the car stalled in town about 5 miles into it's maiden voyage. Started right up and I'm over 600 miles this week w/o a problem. Not sure why it had to kick me in the butt one last time though. Reminds me of this quote "Anyone who says "I can't" should be stung by 1000 bees. Anyone who says "I'll try" - 100 bees. The man who says "I can" - 1 bee"

[motopsyco]

glad you got it solved and that it was a simple fix for ya, and that one last kick in the butt is just something pontiacs do to mess with your mind, all my pontiacs did something like that after i'd fix something, kinda like "just kidding" things. Makes you remember these things have a personality all theyre own. And I like the bee quote.

[badgoat]

Here's the latest. Since my last post I've put in 2 fuel pumps. The last one was good for 1 week. It's 100% the pump each time. I get these from NAPA. My question is there something other then a defective pump that's causing this. I've heard that if the 2 speed pump runs at high speed all the time it will fail quickly. I have 2 of the controllers that mount in the trunk and had a different one in for each of the last 2 pumps. Anything else I can check? Is there another brand of pump worth trying? Thanks in advance for some direction!

[RPACODY]

I sounds like possible intermittent wiring issue. I would take a look at the pump conector and wiring again could be a broken internal wire near the conector. ohm out the wire while flexing it. when the pumps failed and you had them out did you try to jumper them to see if they were dead? OEM pump is a "Delphi AC/Delco" your Napa should have it don't go for thier cheap one.

[MattStrike]

Used junkyard pumps last longer than the "cheapo" $100 pumps. I've rigged up a junkyard fuel pump from another L67 for my series 2, that was back in 2012 and it's still going. My engine came from a '98, and I didn't even bother with the fuel pump module. If you're not modded, then you can get away with bypassing the module and running the NA series 2 pump (very common in most junkyards), you just need to verify that you are not getting a pressure drop (I didn't when my motor was first put in the LeSabre).

But at this point I think it makes sense to first grab a whole new connector from the junyard just to rule out that it's still damaged. The barrel style terminals are nearly impossible to fix once they get goofed up. At least, I've only been successful a few times.

[badgoat]

I sounds like possible intermittent wiring issue. I would take a look at the pump conector and wiring again could be a broken internal wire near the conector. ohm out the wire while flexing it. when the pumps failed and you had them out did you try to jumper them to see if they were dead? OEM pump is a "Delphi AC/Delco" your Napa should have it don't go for thier cheap one.

The last pump I hooked up to my booster box. The box has continuity check which beeped, pump would not run. New pump no issue - for a week. This time car is still sitting outside....