1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)
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MattStrike
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1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by MattStrike »

So I finally gave up trying to get my stock engine (3.8l vin 3) to work properly after a weekend on the dyno. I'm getting 100hp peak @ 4500 rpm with a steady drop to 65hp at redline of 5400rpm. Torque peaks at 150lb*ft at 3500 RPM. By the numbers I have 2/3 the power and 2/3 the gas mileage it has gotten in the past as well as what the factory literature states. I'm done with it, so I pulled from a 1998 Bonneville SSEi an engine, trans, and under-hood wiring harness, HD front axles, complete A/C system, and the gauge cluster. Ran out of time to get the rest (1/2 off weekend). But the car I pulled from had front end corner damage, a separation in the mid-rear frame, and air bags deployed. So, hopefully, it wasn't trashed from a bad trans or engine. Turning the S/C pulley by hand I can hear air hissing out of one of the broken vacuum lines. And both oil and trans fluids indicate a good maintenance schedule or low miles (but you never know till you take things apart) :ballkick:

My biggest issue is determining the difference between the 1986 H-body and the 1998 H-body sub frame dimensions, as well as tuning the PCM to work without the security system, etc.

Now on to the questions for anyone who has had experience with a similar swap...
-Do I have to change the length of the axles?
-I do have to fab some custom engine/trans mounts. In addition to the bottom 4 corner mounts on the '86, can I take one of those fancy wishbone mounts (like on the top front of a regal 3800) and brace the motor against the strut tower bar? Unless the torque axis mount is superior to 4 corners and the extra torque mount that is. 2 hours to change belts annoys me.
-Upgrade to the larger diameter brakes on the newer H-body? I already have 16" aluminum Buick wheels off a Regal GS.
-What size pulley before I have to change the exhaust and intake?
-Will the high flow cat. convertor really kill the low end and fuel economy?
-Does the trans have the HD 4th input shaft already?
-How much power can this 4t65e-(HD?) handle before it needs upgrades?
-Do I need any other wiring harnesses to make this easier?
-Dash swap from the 98 bonneville to the 86 or can I use my existing gauge cluster (tach, oil, temp, volts, speedo)
-Does the series 2 suffer from head gasket or L.I.M. problems?


My goal is 300HP, but I don't feel like doing any major mods until I'm satisfied that the setup will be reliable enough. I'm going to port & polish intake & exhaust and use a cold air intake though. I also plan to setup a sub-frame mock up and test stand to get everything working before I try to dump it in the car. Once in the car, I will be using the stand to try and find the problem with the original engine as well (it *must* not win).


That being said, anybody brave enough to take a gander at the original engines' problem I will have a few months before I do the swap, and I'm willing to test a lot of theories. If so, read on. If you don't care about an outdated engine and want to limit the topic to the L67 then you won't find the rest of my rant entertaining (well maybe entertaining). :banghead: And yes, it is a rant.

:btruestory: :offtopic: :dontknow:
I have a brand new original catalytic convertor manufactured in September of '86 (another failed theory BTW) and it didn't change a thing. I put the entire engine back to stock (replaced the high-flow intake I made with the stock one, replaced the exhaust system, etc.) and it hasn't changed a thing. It has a 4T60, TCC works, and if I put it in neutral it takes about 3 miles to coast from 60mph to a stop. The suspension is new last year. In my opinion it is a controls issue, specifically the spark is firing late. But the interupts for the crank sensor, and the crank sensor, are not adjustable so how could the timing be off? I adjusted the timing chain and sprocket alignment with the sensor according to the CSM (cam interupt triggers the sensor 20 degrees after TDC of piston #1, according to the service manual). According to the timing marks I made based on TDC piston #1, I have about 20 degrees spark advance at idle hot. It dips to exactly 0 degrees when the throttle is suddenly opened to WOT from idle. During normal driving, according to the ALDL datastream (almost useless at 160 Baud), cruising at 70mph netted me a whopping 58 degrees spark advance. I also have an issue with vapor lock. And no, I'm not guessing it's vapor lock. All the fuel in my fuel rail is vaporizing IF and only IF it's really hot out (above 90F), the engine is up to temp, and I shut it off and try to restart within about 15 minutes of shutoff. The vapor pressure doesn't release when the fuel pressure tap is opened, I have to physically disconnect the pressure line and relieve the pressure to get the pump to overcome the vapor pressure (new pump for the S/C engine and new fuel lines, etc so won't be an issue hopefully). I insulated all the fuel lines under the hood and nothing helps.
I do NOT have the original ECM or ICM. They were turned in for a core when we improperly diagnosed the problem when the timing chain jumped a tooth. I haven't been able to find an "X" cast in the block, and the sticker on the door says the car rolled off the assembly line in May of '86. I have checked and double checked that the cam sensor interrupt is properly positioned in relation to the camshaft and TDC of piston #1. I have 5 sets of ICM & ECM from other '86 and '87 Buicks with the same engine/trans, and every PROM available to each (so far 14 different ones). No matter the combination I have the same symptoms. I also had a '87 engine from a P.A. that did the exact same thing, but got 25mpg once during 100% ideal conditions which just happened to cause a rod bearing to spin. I have exhausted my resources and ability to diagnose the problem. I've asked everybody I can think of and nobody has come up with anything yet. I'm not giving up by swapping motors, but I have a better chance of figuring it out on a test stand than in an engine compartment... :helpsmilie:
Once I determine it's not at all fixable, I'm going to topswap a supercharger and see if I can get it to throw a rod. Should be fun. :banana:
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by xX3800Xx »

MattStrike wrote:So I finally gave up trying to get my stock engine (3.8l vin 3) to work properly after a weekend on the dyno. I'm getting 100hp peak @ 4500 rpm with a steady drop to 65hp at redline of 5400rpm. Torque peaks at 150lb*ft at 3500 RPM. By the numbers I have 2/3 the power and 2/3 the gas mileage it has gotten in the past as well as what the factory literature states. I'm done with it, so I pulled from a 1998 Bonneville SSEi an engine, trans, and under-hood wiring harness, HD front axles, complete A/C system, and the gauge cluster. Ran out of time to get the rest (1/2 off weekend). But the car I pulled from had front end corner damage, a separation in the mid-rear frame, and air bags deployed. So, hopefully, it wasn't trashed from a bad trans or engine. Turning the S/C pulley by hand I can hear air hissing out of one of the broken vacuum lines. And both oil and trans fluids indicate a good maintenance schedule or low miles (but you never know till you take things apart) :ballkick:

My biggest issue is determining the difference between the 1986 H-body and the 1998 H-body sub frame dimensions, as well as tuning the PCM to work without the security system, etc.

Now on to the questions for anyone who has had experience with a similar swap...
-Do I have to change the length of the axles?
-I do have to fab some custom engine/trans mounts. In addition to the bottom 4 corner mounts on the '86, can I take one of those fancy wishbone mounts (like on the top front of a regal 3800) and brace the motor against the strut tower bar? Unless the torque axis mount is superior to 4 corners and the extra torque mount that is. 2 hours to change belts annoys me.
-Upgrade to the larger diameter brakes on the newer H-body? I already have 16" aluminum Buick wheels off a Regal GS.
-What size pulley before I have to change the exhaust and intake?
-Will the high flow cat. convertor really kill the low end and fuel economy?
-Does the trans have the HD 4th input shaft already?
-How much power can this 4t65e-(HD?) handle before it needs upgrades?
-Do I need any other wiring harnesses to make this easier?
-Dash swap from the 98 bonneville to the 86 or can I use my existing gauge cluster (tach, oil, temp, volts, speedo)
-Does the series 2 suffer from head gasket or L.I.M. problems?


My goal is 300HP, but I don't feel like doing any major mods until I'm satisfied that the setup will be reliable enough. I'm going to port & polish intake & exhaust and use a cold air intake though. I also plan to setup a sub-frame mock up and test stand to get everything working before I try to dump it in the car. Once in the car, I will be using the stand to try and find the problem with the original engine as well (it *must* not win).


That being said, anybody brave enough to take a gander at the original engines' problem I will have a few months before I do the swap, and I'm willing to test a lot of theories. If so, read on. If you don't care about an outdated engine and want to limit the topic to the L67 then you won't find the rest of my rant entertaining (well maybe entertaining). :banghead: And yes, it is a rant.

:btruestory: :offtopic: :dontknow:
I have a brand new original catalytic convertor manufactured in September of '86 (another failed theory BTW) and it didn't change a thing. I put the entire engine back to stock (replaced the high-flow intake I made with the stock one, replaced the exhaust system, etc.) and it hasn't changed a thing. It has a 4T60, TCC works, and if I put it in neutral it takes about 3 miles to coast from 60mph to a stop. The suspension is new last year. In my opinion it is a controls issue, specifically the spark is firing late. But the interupts for the crank sensor, and the crank sensor, are not adjustable so how could the timing be off? I adjusted the timing chain and sprocket alignment with the sensor according to the CSM (cam interupt triggers the sensor 20 degrees after TDC of piston #1, according to the service manual). According to the timing marks I made based on TDC piston #1, I have about 20 degrees spark advance at idle hot. It dips to exactly 0 degrees when the throttle is suddenly opened to WOT from idle. During normal driving, according to the ALDL datastream (almost useless at 160 Baud), cruising at 70mph netted me a whopping 58 degrees spark advance. I also have an issue with vapor lock. And no, I'm not guessing it's vapor lock. All the fuel in my fuel rail is vaporizing IF and only IF it's really hot out (above 90F), the engine is up to temp, and I shut it off and try to restart within about 15 minutes of shutoff. The vapor pressure doesn't release when the fuel pressure tap is opened, I have to physically disconnect the pressure line and relieve the pressure to get the pump to overcome the vapor pressure (new pump for the S/C engine and new fuel lines, etc so won't be an issue hopefully). I insulated all the fuel lines under the hood and nothing helps.
I do NOT have the original ECM or ICM. They were turned in for a core when we improperly diagnosed the problem when the timing chain jumped a tooth. I haven't been able to find an "X" cast in the block, and the sticker on the door says the car rolled off the assembly line in May of '86. I have checked and double checked that the cam sensor interrupt is properly positioned in relation to the camshaft and TDC of piston #1. I have 5 sets of ICM & ECM from other '86 and '87 Buicks with the same engine/trans, and every PROM available to each (so far 14 different ones). No matter the combination I have the same symptoms. I also had a '87 engine from a P.A. that did the exact same thing, but got 25mpg once during 100% ideal conditions which just happened to cause a rod bearing to spin. I have exhausted my resources and ability to diagnose the problem. I've asked everybody I can think of and nobody has come up with anything yet. I'm not giving up by swapping motors, but I have a better chance of figuring it out on a test stand than in an engine compartment... :helpsmilie:
Once I determine it's not at all fixable, I'm going to topswap a supercharger and see if I can get it to throw a rod. Should be fun. :banana:
Well there certainly is alot here to go over.

Your going to need a Series 2 H-body cradle. I'd grab it from the donor if it isnt damaged. It will bolt right up. You can actually use the entire suspension from it.

The ball joints have a different taper though. So if you grab a cradle with control arms you'll have to swap ball joints to use your spindles.

You will also have to swap wheel bearings to 95+ as the 4t65 axles will not fit into the 86 bearings If you decide to keep your spindles. Driverside should be fine. Your '86 axle should fit into the 4t65. But if you got both you should probably use both.

The brakes are bigger than the factory 10.1" rotors you have now and will fit under your Regal rims.

You will not need to modify the axles.

The trans probably doesnt have the hardened 4th hub and shaft

You should definatly have some intake and exhaust work done before you drop to a 3.4"

Yes the S2 motors suffer from bad LIM gaskets all the time. Use the S3 LIM gaskets.

I am not sure about the wiring but look up Lee King on facebook. He'll be able to tell you more about the wiring involved.

----------------------------------------------

On you LG3 is it reading any knock?
Last edited by xX3800Xx on Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by Jrs3800 »

Have you checked the knock sensor and or circuit?
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by MattStrike »

Lee King is a terrible common name apparently...


----


Short answer on knock:
At one point I remember it showing almost 25 degrees of retard during WOT, not usually during cruising.
However, I changed the sensor since and have to go hook up to see if that is still the case.
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by Jrs3800 »

all I can tell you is you should be doing 150 HP and 210 Ft Lbs...

There was another issues with those engines tho... The Bores were not aligned properly with the split pin crank.. The Pistons would tend to beat the bores and have a lot of scuffing... This also caused issues with the rod bearings... It was extremely rare that I ever saw a the Vin 3 running very good at 200k if they got there without a rod knock...

Those engines were good, but not the best of the best...

the 88 3800 is where it really came around....

Hard to say for sure where you problem may be..
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by xX3800Xx »

this lee king
http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=48006616

I had an '87 parts car that the engine ran perfect once I swapped out the MAF (i bought it with a bad MAF). it had 228k. Still have the engine just not the car anymore.
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by Tricked-T »

Been real busy with the car and bike and well work but I saw this and if you need info I have a ton on this swap and can lend some info. Email me at LMKing84 at yahoo period com

Also I just read through the post a little more, not to be a jerk in any way but sone of the things others have said you need or need to do are slightly incorrect, but again I have notes on just about every aspect of te swap and am more than willing to help.
Last edited by J Wikoff on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by LeSabre in Buffalo »

Might not want to have your email sitting out in public. It's better to PM that sort of stuff. That way you're less likely to have spammers attacking your account.
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by MattStrike »

I'm finishing my swap, and looking for some info...

What lower radiator hose do I need? Local salvage yards cut them, and auto parts stores only have "flex hose".

The heater hose connector, not sure which one, had a mass of gooey leftover plastic and a spring. I carved the gunk out, but was it a one-way valve at one point? Lol... Dex-Cool plasticizes and they put plastic in it intentionally.

On the wiring harness, by the trans speed sensor, oil sensor, rear knock sensor, etc... Those are the only three connectors on the harness. The rest were cut off, I'm trying to figure out what was originally there. I can report wire colors and gauge if needed. I have the rear O2 sensor and wiring, so it's not that.

The throttle cable... another part that doesn't seem to have a part number at the store. Is it the same as the N/A series 2?

There may be more questions at some point, but trying to get a list of random parts I need from the junkyard for this weekends' half-off day. So far the engine is in the car, mostly wired and plumbed in. I accidentally grabbed a Park Avenue driver-side C/V axle too. C-body used to be identical to H-body IIRC... just need the washer fluid and coolant overflow tanks now.
I had to do some interesting welding to be able to use the '98 A/C system, but I'll have A/C next summer! Wiring this thing has been a breeze! lol. I'm liking the PCM over the mess that was the '86 wiring harness.
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by MattStrike »

Hooray!!!

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

L67 project success!

:bwoohoo: :bwoohoo: :bwoohoo: :bwoohoo: :bwoohoo:

It's so weird going from 105hp to 260hp....
I do have a SES light to sort out, but that engine throws my LeSabre around like a rag doll...

Thanks to all for your help with my vague questions...

Time for a beer. :beerchug:
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Current project:
Something cool, trust me.

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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by 00Beast »

We DEFINITELY need some pictures and videos. Any pics of what you did would be great!

Glad to see you got it together and it's going down the road. :beerchug: :banana:
Last edited by 00Beast on Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by MattStrike »

***Got it!


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Left = last good rocker; right = repaired rocker before cleaning. 5/16" ball nose end mill
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Washer fluid not connected yet...
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Actual miles!
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(thought i'd throw in a comparison to the previous engine)
Last edited by MattStrike on Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Something cool, trust me.

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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by 95naSTA »

All red X's. :(
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by gonzo4191 »

post the img tag....

update your sig please!
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by MattStrike »

Now I just have to figure out how to upload video :)
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Something cool, trust me.

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'87 LeSabre T-type
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'97 LeSabre - Top swap

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'93 SE - L67
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by 00Beast »

Looks good! Would look stellar on some 00+ Bonneville 5 spoke wheels I bet.

Cute cat. ;)
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by MattStrike »

I actually wanted the honeycomb wheels like the ones on 95naSTA's signature... and some T-Type trim...
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'04 Sierra 2500HD - LLY Duramax

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Something cool, trust me.

Upcoming projects:
'92 Bonneville SSE
'87 LeSabre T-type
'67 LeSabre

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'97 LeSabre - Top swap

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'93 SE - L67
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by 95naSTA »

Nice job. It looks like it belongs in there.
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Info on dropping a 92-99: Here.
redzmonte
Posts like an L67
Posts like an L67
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by redzmonte »

MattStrike wrote:I actually wanted the honeycomb wheels like the ones on 95naSTA's signature... and some T-Type trim...
if you want the honey comb wheel, look at the 1989-95'ish Pontia grand prix GTP/SE you can get them in the 5x115 bolt patter from 6.5" wide to 8" wide (turbo GP 89-90, maybe others as well +25mm offset might stick out tho). they came in Silver, White and Gold. look just like the TA wheels.
Cool Build BTW

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Shane "RedZMonte"
2004 Z16 Z06: Virgin
2000 SSEi: Kenwood DDX512, 3.25" MPS, ZZP DP, PLog, Puck Mount, NGK TR7's, DHP Tuned
1995 Monte Z34: T04e "60" turbo, 42.5# injectors, Borla Catback, OBDII swap, DHP Tuned, Much more...
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95naSTA
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Re: 1986 H-body L67 S2 swap

Post by 95naSTA »

redzmonte wrote:
MattStrike wrote:I actually wanted the honeycomb wheels like the ones on 95naSTA's signature... and some T-Type trim...
if you want the honey comb wheel, look at the 1989-95'ish Pontia grand prix GTP/SE you can get them in the 5x115 bolt patter from 6.5" wide to 8" wide (turbo GP 89-90, maybe others as well +25mm offset might stick out tho). they came in Silver, White and Gold. look just like the TA wheels.
Cool Build BTW

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Those are the wheels in my signature.

I would suggest getting Bonnie crosslace wheels that look similar. Like you were saying, I think the earlier 8" wide crosslaces will have too agressive of an offset for the LeSabre.
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95 SLE... a keeper. 241k miles. Low and Slow.
97 BMW 528i
98 Infiniti vq35'd i30: 13.3@104mph, 30MPG Hwy (RIP)
02 Jag X-type
03 BMW M5
05 Chevy Cobalt LS
07 Infiniti G35s 6MT (Sold)
07 Ducati Monster S2R 800 with DS1000 swap
83 Yamaha IT175K
72 Yamaha DS7: '74 RD250 swap, JL chambers

Info on dropping a 92-99: Here.
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