1987 vin 3 Issues

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krut
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1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

My Buick seems to have a hard start condition. The idle is jumps about (what range I don't know. No tach) at times, and the motor cannot have its throttle bumped without it hesitating and shutting off.

Could this be the symptom of the crank sensor being bad or maladjusted?
If that's the case, from what reference point should I adjust the sensor? (With the balancer on and try to split the difference between the blades?) Also, would this also be a cause of the hesitation when throttle is applied?

Thanks :)
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by myfirstbonnie »

SES light? When was the last time the MAF and TB were cleaned?
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

No SES light anymore, and when I did it was 42, and 22, IIRC
I cleaned up the throttle body about a month ago (the problem was still persistent then.) -- New gaskets as well. The MAF has been cleaned, and I have tried a MAF from a LeSabre with the same result.

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Time for me to try to find some eggnog.

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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by Mechanical Mike »

Try checking the resistance of the ignition coils. I post a link to an article in a minute.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by 00Beast »

That car has the magnavox coils, doesn't it? Could try upgrading to 93+ coils and ICM.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

I have a delco style coil pack (that's the three coils separately, right?) laying in my box of random goodies.
The magnavox coil pack has been replaced as well.
I checked the primaries and secondaries on the pack.
The secondaries put out 11.8 k-ohms across the board.
The primaries put out 1 across the board. (Using a cheapo harbor freight meter.)
Last edited by krut on Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by Mechanical Mike »

I usually try to eliminate ignition system problems & move on from there. I'd check out the spark plugs next. If any of them are dark then change them all. The ICM (ignition control module) is mounted under the coils & grounds through the mounting bracket. Remove the coils, ICM and mounting plate. Clean all the corrosion off the mounting bracket, both sides of the mounting plate & the bottom of the ICM. Coat all four surfaces with dielectric grease & reassemble.

If the plugs look OK & cleaning the mounting surfaces doesn't help then check fuel pressure next. Also check for any signs of fuel in the vacuum line going to the fuel pressure regulator.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

The ignition module is grounded.
The plugs are new.
I had to replace the pressure regulator as it was bad, it holds the correct pressure.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by myfirstbonnie »

Check your TPS, throttle position sensor. You should see a smooth transition when reading the resistance. You also want to make sure it is adjusted properly. These years had the slotted holes. You should see about .4 volts at idle and a little under 5 volts at full throttle (please do not check this while the engine is running. :laughing3: ). I do not remember which lead is which, but one is ground, another is the supply and the third is the feedback to the ECM. You want to read between the feedback and the ground when checking the voltages and have the key in the run position.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

Hehe, I've calibrated the TPS... It's at .41 volts or so.


I did make sure the TPS was adjusted a second time though. It took the car about 20 seconds to start, but I had my brother sit behind the wheel and stomp the throttle as I had the meter hooked up :) It puts out 5v alright!
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

I have been fiddling with the buick again, and I finally got it started again. I looked at the crank position sensor and it seems to be rubbing on the outside plastic piece, not the magnet. I adjusted it closer and noticed the blades aren't keeping a constant gap for some reason (which was the beginning of this whole fiasco -- rubber was separating, and the balancer whacked the sensor on both sides) -- either way, when I got it started the SES light came on again... code 42? -- I replaced the ignition module, but I have a delco II around here somewhere. -- Do I have to move any pins to make that ICM / coil setup work? (For testing at least.)
Is it normal for the blades behind the balancer to not (at least look like by my eyes) to not stay a constant gap from the pickup for the crank sensor?

**edit
Other ICM is worse. Not starting at all, sounds like it's backfiring through the exhaust.
With the magnavox setup there were at least promising sounds ;)
Thanks for the help, and sorry for the information overload. I finally was able to get back under the hood.
Thanks!
Last edited by krut on Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

Well, that's what I get for working at night. Brake booster wasn't plugged in. :ack:
I took the ICM and added my own ground to make sure that's not the problem, and cleaned the mounting brackets, etc just to be sure. (had to clean exhaust manifold bolts anyways)

Still throwing that code, and spark is being produced.
Electrical issue on injectors? -- fuel pump works, the relay is working, there is definitely fuel pressure in the rail... we sprayed some gas into the tb to try to start it... and it sounded like a bit of an improvement.

I did notice the spark plugs are now dry.

Ideas?
Regards,
Kurt
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

Well, I looked the ignition system over THOROUGHLY.
I followed this flowchart to get an idea of possible problems on the code 42 (which is now gone again)
http://www.justanswer.com/view_image.as ... ode_42.gif

in step 2.) the EST resistance is under 200 ohms (i can't remember it exactly, it was like 72...)
in step 3.) I placed the test light at the bypass wire and it did not light.
in step 4.) the EST wire put out 9,000 ohms.
in step 5.) the light did not come on.

I also checked the frequencies put out by the crank and cam sensors
the cam sensor was putting out approx 120 kHz.
the crank sensor was putting out approx 40 kHz. The crank sensor was also putting out about 2.4v

When cranking, and checking the resistance on the EST wire, it was putting out about 175 -> 200 ohms.

Is it true that for the ICM to work correctly, when cranking the EST wire must put out 300 -> 500 mV?

If this is the case, it looks like I may have pinpointed the problem, but not the solution.
What could contribute to this?
(I have another ECM... but I haven't tried it yet... I don't really think that's going to be the solution.)

Any ideas?
Thanks :)
Last edited by krut on Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by krut »

Hooray, new information!
Tried to take ICM to test at Autozone, but they did not have the correct plugs (MN and NN?)
Does any ICM from a newer pontiac/buick/olds work in place of the magnavox? (SC 3.8, SI / SII 3.8, etc.)

Now to new problem: I noticed that a fuel injector was unplugged, which would be the source of the reappearing miss, but the hard starting condition is now worse -- the engine is bucking when starting.
No codes are being thrown still.
A few days ago the opposite was the issue.
All EST sensors are in calibration now. Continuity is fine. -- MAF? IAT? ECM? (supposing the ICM isn't a problem)

Any ideas?
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Re: 1987 vin 3 Issues

Post by MattStrike »

If the crank sensor is worn or damaged from the previous balancer episode, it MUST be replaced (maybe you have a spare?). A damaged crank pickup sends bad signals to the ICM. The signal from the crank sensor is used by the icm to determine when to trigger the next ignition coil. The cam signal (ecm pin A11, icm pin J) (25` after piston #1/4 reaches top dead center) starts the firing sequence on the #3/6 coil (as well as times the sfi on this motor). The icm processes the crank signal into the reference signals at pin B5 and B3 on the ecm. At ~400rpm the ecm applies 5 volts to circuit 424 (ecm pin D5, icm pin B) to switch the spark timing control from the icm to the ecm. An open or grounded by-pass circuit will set code 42 and the engine will run on icm timing.
EST circuit 423 (ecm pin B4, icm pin A) open or grounded will also set code 42.

If you are getting an intermittant code 42, based on what the flow chart says in my CSM you have an intermittant open ckt 424. That is pin B at the ICM and pin D5 at the ECM. The wire may be broke, but it's more likely that the connector is a piece of crap on the ICM side (it may have oxydation deposites or have a bad sping inside on the wire-side contact). With a tiny screwdriver the connector can be disassembled, cleaned and re-sprung, this will usually fix connector issues (use di-electric grease to prevent future oxydation). An open ckt 424 shouldn't effect startup quality, but will adversely effect performance and economy.

Now for the crank sensor, it's a hall effect switch. Damage to the sensor or interupts could cause early or late switching. It's normal for the gap on the inside of the vane to be narrower at the top and bottom, and the gap on the outside of the vane to be narrow in the middle section, as long as the sensor does not contact the interupts. At least the one on this motor is like this because the curve of the vanes doesn't exactly match the curve on the sensor pickups.
(cue the crappy not to scale exaggerated graphic to illustrate the previous statement)
|.---|.\\...|----|
|----|...\\.|----|
|~---|...||.|----|
|----|...//.|----|
|.---|.//...|----|

If it's not the crank sensor........ :(
I had a similar hard starting condition that was caused by the timing chain having jumped. The original '86 vin 3 has a nylon camshaft sprocket and I believe (I'm not 100% sure because I've seen both nylon and metal sprockets in the junkyards on them) the nylon was used in '87 as well. It had begun taking progressively longer and longer for our car to start over a few months, during which time the computer threw code 41 (related to loss of cam signal) and occationally code 42, so we had replaced the computer, ICM, and a few other ignition parts only to see the problems get worse or alleviate for a few starts. The car ran rough and also had problems dying at stop lights and when starting from stops, when cruising and suddenly taking your foot off the gas, completely randomly, etc..

If you have over 100k miles and never changed the timing chain check to see if it jumped. If it has a nylon cam sprocket then the teeth tend to break off over time and fall into the oil pan... The last time I replaced a timing chain on my '86 I got the timing set for $26 and the gaskets set for $45.

One faster way to tell if you have the nylon sprocket problem (although you can't check the alignment) is to drop the oil pan and check for nylon rubble in the pan or the pump strainer, and shine a light up the timing chain cover and see if the sprocket at the top has broken teeth AND check to see if there is any play/slippage between the crank and cam sprockets AND make sure the timing chain damper isn't broken (the chain should be pretty tight without much play)... I know it's a tight fit and difficult to see without pulling the timing cover but it can be done. The downside to checking this way is that even if nothing is wrong you'll still have to change your oil and put a new gasket on the pan if it doesn't have a re-usable one.

If you do still have the original nylon cam sprocket and over 100k miles you are saving yourself a future headache by replacing it now because if enough of the teeth break off on the nylon sprocket the valve train will crash into the pistons, pretty much junking the motor unless you get lucky like I did where it jumped 1 tooth. Normal metal sprockets won't have that problem unless the chain stretches enough and the damper breaks. In both cases, a broken damper can cause the chain to jump.

I have the chassis service manual for the '86 vin 3 in case you wondered how I knew all the technical stuff :wink:
Last edited by MattStrike on Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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