PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

Time to get serious about this and I'd like to pinpoint the exact parts for purchase by April (tax return time).

I'm looking for a cam somewhere in the region of what Intense calls a "1X" and ZZP calls a "XP". Both would require 105 springs and aftermarket retainers. Both companies seem to offer a package deal that includes these parts, plus a new timing chain (at first glance looks like a double roller with ZZP's package and single with Intense's).

But what about pushrods? It seems logical to go with something a little more beefy in that department. Looking for input there. Also, are stock rockers acceptable for this setup?

Moving on to the trans....

I hate the stock torque converter, I'm using the word HATE here. It feels clunky, slow, and is stubborn when I want it to unlock on the street. A 2002 GTP TCC performance table helped, but I need to go further. What stall speed is suggested? I plan on mainly street use with occasional drag strip use in the summer (one visit per month). What is the stock stall speed? Intense suggests 3000 for what I want to do, while ZZP says 2500 or 2750. Lots of concerns there.

Next is the input shaft. Pretty self explanatory and from what I see Intense and ZZP offer the same 4340 input shaft.

So the total:
1X/XP cam
105 springs
Retainers
Timing chain
Torque Converter (with L36 flexplate)
Input Shaft
Pushrods?
Rockers?

Without the last 2 in question I'm looking at roughly $1400 in parts alone, which should be in my budget come spring.

stock rockers are fine. you don't want to run higher rockers with a cam. That's about all i can help you on

Hello Kyle..
Going to go a little deeper in the motor huh?

Pushrods:
Unless your going for oil restricted, I'd keep the stockers.
Do not get lightweight pushrods, I broke one.

Camshaft:
If you buy a cam kit, you have all the stuff you need.
Get the Comp Cams 105# valve springs, those are awesome.
You do not need to get the aftermarket retainers, its optional. I believe the aftermarket retainers are a little tighter in the top of the valve spring.. not sure if that's good or bad. If your valve guides don't wear out with stock retainers then I don't see a problem. The 105 springs are the same dimensions as the stockers.
Stock rockers are fine, I run stock rockers. I can't see changing to a roller tip when they have not proven any gains on the dyno.
I'd stick with stock lifters too or the LS7 lifters, i can give you the part numbers for the new lifters. FWIW, GM uses the same lifters in all production motors today. they (GM) upgraded them for the LS7 so if you want an upgraded lifter go get new GM lifters for the same price as comp. which
BTW, Do Not Buy or Install Comp lifters.. they suck.

Torque Converter:
This is important.
If you want to start going to the track more often, go for the higher stall.
If you want to be 90% street driving, do not get the 3000 stall.
Because...
I have the 3000 stall and it causes some nonsense TCC lockup issues, i finally got them tuned out better but holy crap, its all about driving the car, feel it, change as needed, flash test drive again. The TCC lock-hunting issue sucks.
I will suggest that the problems are not so bad if you keep the stock gears.

I wished I would have gotten a 2600 or 2750 stall but I think those were not available when I did my trans build.
I would strongly suggest that you keep the stall limited to 2750 or less.

I see that ZZP offers new sealing rings for the input shaft. Might as well?

EDIT: Looks like a single timing chain is a direct replacement to the stock one. I'll be sure to avoid a double roller.

Having just done the cam I have a few thoughts. The double roller isn't all that bad if you plan on racing it a lot. If you plan on having a smooth ride then go with the single. The only noticable vibration you have with a double is at initial take off and if you are turning a corner. Then it about beats you to death.

There are plenty of people running stock rockers and pushrods with bigger cams so no worries there.

The springs and retainers, and while you are there might as well do the vavle seals. They are cheap insurance.

Don't forget all the gaskets (LIM, front cover, supercharger if needed), new bolts (cam, crank, rocker arms) , and such that you will need. Most of the bolts are torque to yield from the factory and are designed for use only one time. I found that out which I didn't know before.

Maybe you want to go for the 8 rib setup or SFI balancer?

Then there are tools that you may or may not have of course. Balancer puller is really the only real special tool required for the job.

Can't think of much else that wasn't already covered.

x2 on the lower stall converter recommendation. I haven't had any TCC issues with a 3k stall and 3.69s. However, the car does feel sluggish at low revs, and when you do give it gas the motor will instantly shoot up to 3k rpm (no boost but it still scoots) which gives the car sort of bipolar nature.

x2 on the CC 105# springs...zero issues with them

There are some rare reports of S1X sized cams prematurely wearing valve seals when run with stock spring retainers. The measurements on my heads showed a stock retainer-seal clearance of ~.580, enough to support a ~.520 lift cam. I run milled aftermarket retainers for an extra .030 clearance just to be on the safe side. They do fit the springs a little tighter too. Just a thought.

superchargedSSEi wrote: There are some rare reports of S1X sized cams prematurely wearing valve seals when run with stock spring retainers. The measurements on my heads showed a stock retainer-seal clearance of ~.580, enough to support a ~.520 lift cam. I run milled aftermarket retainers for an extra .030 clearance just to be on the safe side. They do fit the springs a little tighter too. Just a thought.

Yeah I read on some people having the valve seals wear quickly. As SuperSLE said it would be a good idea to get new seals at the same time, so I'll keep that in mind.

I believe ZZP modifies their retainers to provide the extra clearance that you describe. I'm leaning towards the ZZP XP cam because it provides slightly more lift than Intense's.

Thanks for the timing chain information as well. From ZZP's site:

To run the *double roller, the balance shaft gear must be removed. To save additional weight the balance shaft can removed altogether but this requires plugging the rear oiling hole. The Rollmaster has a much tighter fit, so the timing chain tensioner is no longer used.

Keep in mind I plan on doing this all in one shot and will have a professional shop do it.

Keep in mind I plan on doing this all in one shot and will have a professional shop do it.

$$Caching$$

2000Silverbullet wrote:

Keep in mind I plan on doing this all in one shot and will have a professional shop do it.

$$Caching$$

I sure as hell don't have the experience to do it.

I only feel comfortable up to installing headers.

Taken step by step, with the kind of help we can give, it would be as easy as headers! Maybe even easier and a lot more fun.

Only reason I went for rockers over a cam is the mileage on the engine.....30 K miles.

Yeah, I actually thought the cam was a way easier install than headers. It is a little scarry on what to expect, but isn't too bad when you start to see everything.

Removing the balance shaft will require even a pro shop a lot more work and I am sure they will charge you accordingly to do it. You have to either plug the hole, which the engine has to be out of the car, or they have to press a different bearing in there to block the oiling hole. Either way it is a pain and not really worth it. Just take of the gear if you go double roller. If you go single chain you still use the balance shaft.

If I can remind myself to do it, I'll document the cam install when I swap everything from my old motor to the new longblock in the next week or so. It might convince you that you have the skill to do your own. It really isn't too hard...just time consuming.

PDXGTP wrote:The 105 springs are the same dimensions as the stockers.

Umm, no.....


The install height of the stock spring is 1.72", and it is 1.8" for the comp springs due to them being an LS1 spring. You need the new modified retainers unless you want to start breaking valve springs.....



As for the lifters, I am running comp lifters with no issues. The only complaint I have is that they are noisy. When I top swap I'm going to move back to stockers.

He's correct on the spring setup, they need to be used with retainers that show a 1.800" install height. I happen to have CC105 springs, ZZP mod'd retainers all installed on a set of heads with less than 10K miles on them if you are interested. Clean up, bolt on , go. I won't be using them anymore.

That's not what I meant.
The "install height" really means how much the spring is compressed when installed.
The retainers will change the seat pressure. for Comp 105's it adds 23 pounds at the valve seat but the spring rate is the same.
Nobody is going to die if you use the stock retainers.
Don't believe 100% in all the stuff printed by ZZP, they are not the only shops in the counrty that have worked on cylinder heads. They are selling retainers be cause they have everyone pretty convinced that the Intense broken spring thing happens to everyone. it doesn't. Intense also knows what they are doing.
What ZZP never said in their tech article is you can break valves if the seat pressure is to high. I've seen stock springs with stock retainers break too., oh yeah, stock valves and rockers.. parts break..
If the retainer contacted the valve guide or the spring bound that would be different. That won't happen with a stock cam.. different cams have everything to do with it.

PDXGTP wrote:That's not what I meant.
The "install height" really means how much the spring is compressed when installed.
The retainers will change the seat pressure. for Comp 105's it adds 23 pounds at the valve seat but the spring rate is the same.
Nobody is going to die if you use the stock retainers.
Don't believe 100% in all the stuff printed by ZZP, they are not the only shops in the counrty that have worked on cylinder heads. They are selling retainers be cause they have everyone pretty convinced that the Intense broken spring thing happens to everyone. it doesn't. Intense also knows what they are doing.
What ZZP never said in their tech article is you can break valves if the seat pressure is to high. I've seen stock springs with stock retainers break too., oh yeah, stock valves and rockers.. parts break..
If the retainer contacted the valve guide or the spring bound that would be different. That won't happen with a stock cam.. different cams have everything to do with it.

That may be so, but if it were me, I'd rather spend the 35 bucks and have peace of mind that my springs won't bind and I have less of a chance of breaking stuff.

A person does not have to buy ZZP's mod'd retainers but the proper retainer for a 1.8" install height comes recommended. CC sells the proper retainers for thier springs.

Dirthead Racing wrote:A person does not have to buy ZZP's mod'd retainers but the proper retainer for a 1.8" install height comes recommended. CC sells the proper retainers for thier springs.

Bingo...

I guess I owe an apology...

I just get tired of people following ZZP like lost sheep. when ever ZZP lerns something they publish it like it was another book/chaptor/verse of the 3800 bible.

Don't get me wrong, I like ZZP and Intense, both have done me right.

I do have a problem with a business that makes a point of making them self look better, (or an attempt at) by trying to finger point and blame others. That's not the way to elevate yourself.

So what if an LS6 spring broke under an Intense GenIII 1:9 RR... parts break, premature failures do really happen, factory defects etc. I would never blame Intense.. People want to mod their cars and Intense is out there providing parts.
I also don't like the way they pick apart Wbody store.. again.. not tjhe way to make yourself look better, or smarter.

I also apologize for derailing the thread, Kyle wanted to develope a cam swap list.
Now that he's scared by the retainers... go ahead and give ZZP your money.
If I was running a high load spring, which I do, I used the Comp retainers.

I'm also running the CC retainers now with no problems. I wish i had taken more pictures when i did my install to see the difference between them and the stockers.