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My brother's 04 Pontiac GT was still running the stock plugs and wires and he has 46k miles on the car. He bought it new a couple years back with around 30K and he hasn't abused it... but he doesn't have much time or know how when it comes to fixing things. He's never even had the cover off the motor... man its a filthy motor :sad5:

He mentioned slow starts and his fuel economy dropping some and I asked him when the last time he changed out his plugs and wires were. He answered never so I took it upon myself to remedy that situation

So he bought the parts and lunch (and I've been staying at his place this weekend anyway) so I started work.

The front 3 plug wires were stubborn to get off, but not too bad since I could see what I was doing and had room in front of the radiator to move my hands around... But the rear 3.... OMG they were a PAIN to get off!! Now I see why I read about complaints about those three wires! It took me forever to pry them off, especially being the originals after 46k miles! I ended up using a pair of channel locks to grab the aluminum boot covers with and then rocking them back and forth till the boot popped off. I didn't mess up the covers too bad but I figure its not the end of the world since they hang out in the back of the motor where nobody sees 'em.

I went with him to NAPA to get the parts so I made sure he got Belden wires and NGK TR 55 plugs, so he's good to go. The old plugs were all very uniform in color and no weird burn spots or anything else out of the ordinary so I don't think he has any issues... he does need to get the trans fluid flushed and the coolant swapped from dex-kill to the prestone mixes with any stuff but I guess its just one thing at a time for now.

But... I'm spoiled because I'm used to GENEROUS amounts of room in my Buick with the flip-forward hood. Even in my brother's Olds 88 or my Bonnie conversion getting at the rear plugs aren't nearly this hard!

Its one of those things that I've noticed about newer cars... a lot of the standard maintenance parts are hidden in the engine bay by other parts in the interest of saving space, weight, and ultimately money by the manufacturer. It just irks me that an extra inch can't be allowed for the poor schmuck that has to work on the car after its sold.

Yeah, it's miserable.

I agree, my engine bay is very well laid out. My biggest concern is the water pump job. When I changed my plugs, i took my Strut tower bar off just to save me the drama. Oddly enough, it was easier to get the back 3 in than the front 3. Go figure. I look at the engine bay on my dad's '97 ultra, and I want nothing to do with it.

It's not just newer 3800s, it's wbodies in general

It seems like its a trend in a lot of cars I've seen. The back cowl covers half the motor in the bay and I just don't understand why a designer would make it so difficult to work on the car after its built.

Oh well, I probably wont do it next time but instead let my brother sit on the motor and cuss at it! At least I put antisieze and di-electric grease on the plugs so maybe he won't have as much trouble as I did.

We're going to do the PCV valve today too while we're thinking about it but that only takes a couple minutes so no biggie.

W-bodies are a PITA to work on. Whenever I have to take the battery out of the GS, it involves removing the coolant overflow reservoir. I hate working on that dang car.......

My LeSabre is easy to work on. Giant engine bay with all the mounts down low. Plugs and wires weren't bad. Just getting the piss-poor rear wires off was a pain.

my 2000 is a breeze to work on. Generous amouts of room.

A little off topic, but 4X,000 miles seems WAY too early to be changing out the spark plugs IMO. My mom's SSEi had over 93K on it when it was totaled with the originals and it ran fine.

Plugs are cheap, better safe than sorry, IMO.

I agree, my engine bay is very well laid out. My biggest concern is the water pump job. When I changed my plugs, i took my Strut tower bar off just to save me the drama. Oddly enough, it was easier to get the back 3 in than the front 3. Go figure. I look at the engine bay on my dad's '97 ultra, and I want nothing to do with it.

I would think his Ultra would be way easier than your car to work on. My L67 car is easier than my L27 car was and the LSS has much less room under the hood than an Ultra.

I like my LN3s and LG3's. I think i will stick with them. So much room that the front 3 plugs are harder to remove than the back 3. And without ABS I have that much more room for the turbo i plan on running once i graduate wyotech.

I went ahead and changed the plugs on my brothers car because:

1. I already had the wires off and I might as well change the plugs while I've got everything apart.

2. They're cheap. Why not? I know I don't want to take those *dang* rear three plug boots off again until everything needs to be replaced.

I really like working on my LeSabre since getting at the engine is SOOO easy with the flip forward hood. I kinda miss the flip forward ness on my Bonneville conversion but meh, theres still enough room and its not that hard to just remove the pnuematic lifts and prop the hood open further if I need more room for something.

Its just the stupid cowl that overlaps the engine bay that really irritates the crap out of me. The motor mount on my brother's car in the front was *kinda* in the way of changing the left most front plug and wire but it wasn't really that much of a hassle.

i wouldnt qualify the all the Series 2 and 3 into the same category. The W bodies are much tougher to do anything on. The H and C bodies have much much more room

1993 sle wrote:i wouldnt qualify the all the Series 2 and 3 into the same category. The W bodies are much tougher to do anything on. The H and C bodies have much much more room

This is what made working on my brother's car interesting... I had never worked on anything other than a LN3 so it was very interesting to be able to poke around on a motor that I've only read articles about and seen in pictures in any depth.

Also, I have never worked on a W body before either. I've worked on my H body, a C body, and some other random cars of friends but never a W body. Those rear plug wires were a bear though, as I had read elsewhere so I at least knew to expect it. The best thing I learned was that a nice thick foam pad is very, very nice to have so that I wouldn't mess up my knees crouching on the radiator support beam.

The plugs themselves really weren't' that hard to get at but I was using a 3/8 ratchet that was about a foot long and the head swiveled so that probably helped me A LOT in being able to get the right angle to get at the plugs right. I had to use a cheater bar to break them loose but after that they spun just fine with just the ractcheting action of the wrench and then the last bit was done by hand.

Ya know, I ought to call my brother and see if his fuel economy has gone up. He said he was only getting like 22 mixed (mostly highway though). I figure he should be getting more like 25-27 mixed.

On my LeSabre I found the extended spark plug socket from HF to be a $6 lifesaver. Combined with a 19mm wrench it was unstoppable for plugs. Now with a ratcheting wrench the job should go even faster next time.

Have to love plugs that are heat-sealed into the head.

Extended spark plug socket from HF? Link? I just used a 12 point Craftsman deep socket. Worked fine for me, although I really should be using a 6 point to avoid stripping anything.

Edit: This? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=91705

Being longer would actually be a bad thing on the W body. I had a short extension on the socket I was using on some of the plugs so that I had enough distance to get my ratchet away from the exhaust manifolds to swing the wrench but on a couple of the plugs the extension made it too long so that I couldn't fit the socket, extension, and ratchet in place with the limited space against the firewall.

Edit 2: A plug boot puller? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=65440

Even this might not fit... its a good idea though.

I needed that boot puller on monday night, when I did plugs and wires. I used a brake shoe adjuster on the back plug wires to get them off. I hated that, *dang* job took me 3 hours.

l67poweredlss wrote:

RJolly87 wrote:I agree, my engine bay is very well laid out. My biggest concern is the water pump job. When I changed my plugs, i took my Strut tower bar off just to save me the drama. Oddly enough, it was easier to get the back 3 in than the front 3. Go figure. I look at the engine bay on my dad's '97 ultra, and I want nothing to do with it.

I would think his Ultra would be way easier than your car to work on. My L67 car is easier than my L27 car was and the LSS has much less room under the hood than an Ultra.

Actually not. Remember that the PA was a totally new car for 97. There is a huge magnesium structural piece that runs through the dash in the 97+ Park Avenue. It adds a ton of rigidity and side-impact protection the body, but it requires that the A/C be pushed forward a bit, which means the firewall has to push forward a bit, which means there is very little room to get at the #2 spark plug. You have to stick your hand through an opening only about 2"x2.5", and surrounded by sharp edges. The you have to turn your wrist double to get the socket and a 3" extension on the plug, and THEN you can reach the ratchet in and connect it to the socket. This is the ONLY possible way to get the #2 plug out of a 97+ Park Avenue Ultra, unless you want to crawl on top of the motor and lay down on it to reach in from the top.

All three of my GM products, both Bonnevilles and a 2001 Alero, are very easy to work on. We also have a couple Ferd products, a 97 Sable and a 92 Aerostar. I can only relate to your engine bay room complaints by thinking of the Sable and Aerosuperstar. There's absolutely no room for anything. It took about 6 hours to change the plugs on the van, and the Sable has to have its UIM taken off to get to the plugs. On the other hand, the worst issue I have with the Alero is that the ignition system rests on top of the plugs and needs to be removed to change the plugs. It's only 4 bolts, and it's all one piece, so that's all you disconnect before you can mess with the plugs.