GEN V or ported GEN III w/SSIC?

[olblueeyesbonne]

Which would be better?
I'm looking at what I will be doing this winter and am trying to nail down exactly what would be best.
Would a GEN V (polished inlet and outlet) with N*
or
Ported GEN III with SSIC and N* be better?

I have a ported GEN III that was supposed to have been ported already but the shop called to say he wasn't able to get to it and is going on vacation until September 29th.
I'm trying to decide before then if I want him to go ahead and port the GEN III (probably will considering I could sell for a good price and put that towards a GEN V, but would like the GEN V by late October for the last race of the season @ Rock Falls.

I also will be doing XS Headers this winter (if they can confirm they'll fit H-bodies) so this is something to consider.

[bonnevillain]

id say go for the ported Gen III and IC. the Gen V itself doesn't gain you much, it's just a little more efficient if you want to pulley down again.

[willwren]

I agree. The GenV doesn't really gain you much. And possibly won't gain you anything without tuning. In fact, you'll probably be running it with a larger pulley. This means less hp lost in driving it, and less heat produced to achieve the same net result from a Gen3 with a smaller pulley.

The question is, what mods will you do to support the intercooler? Many intercool too soon in the game. Look how far Rogue went without an IC for instance.

[Allmachtige]

IMHO Cam should come before an IC.

I'd say GenIII in your case.

[superchargedSSEi]

Gen3 since without a good tune you won't be able to use the GenV to its fullest. I'd also consider putting the money set aside for an IC towards other supporting mods instead since, IMO, an IC should be one of the last mods considered.

[gigolo]

y the time a person gets a gen v you would think that they would either have a tuner or would have someone that could tune for them. my advice get the gen v and watch the boards for a used IC core and build from there that is what I did I sat on my gen v for 8 months or more before I got it put on. now yes I have a tuner and yes I will ic but do it once and do it right and you will be happy.
Also wren explain what mods would be required that are so important that an IC would have no effect like you eluded too. look at the cobalts and the cobras and the thunderbirds they were all factory ICed and so pls explain how that is wrong. i would love to hear your wisdom

[willwren]

Start here for some good information:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14

The point is that there are things that your money is better spent on in terms of actual FLOW improvements on the engine before it's worth going to an intercooler.

There's a suggested ORDER of mods, and intercooling is typically one of the last things on that list.

[Dirthead Racing]

Start here for some good information:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14

The point is that there are things that your money is better spent on in terms of actual FLOW improvements on the engine before it's worth going to an intercooler.

There's a suggested ORDER of mods, and intercooling is typically one of the last things on that list.

I beg to differ slightly. I know what the SUGGESTED order of mods is, I don't agree with the V over IC. I SHOULD have put an intercooler on before putting a CAM in. I believe a person SHOULD put a IC in before spending money on a Gen-V, if planned properly the change down the road can be seamless. I SHOULD have put heads on before putting a CAM in. I think with a bonneville exhaust a TUNER and IC would not be the WORST second 2 purchases for a car behind an intake. A tuner in the RIGHT hands can net better results than CAI/TB/plug mods combined. An IC COMBINEDwith the tuner COULD be utilized to make up for the other INEFFICIENCIES. That's what I think about it.

BTW can we add using RANDOM capital LETTERS to the LIST for bad Spelling puncuation, and proper GRAMMAR?

[willwren]

Everyone has their own thoughts on it. Mine tend to be guided by INTENSE and the advice they've been giving for several years now.

It makes a wierd kinda sense to actually increase the flow capabilities of the motor before you increase the density of the intake charge by intercooling, doesn't it?

[Oldsman105]

Everyone has their own thoughts on it. Mine tend to be guided by INTENSE and the advice they've been giving for several years now.

It makes a wierd kinda sense to actually increase the flow capabilities of the motor before you increase the density of the intake charge by intercooling, doesn't it?

Not really .... Depends on the car.



Remeber that in the case of engine flow the L32 is little to no improvement over the L67 yet they threw the Gen V on it .

[willwren]

Again, I form my opinions on the subject by deferring to INTENSE. After all, they've had the greatest success in modding L67's as far as our application is concerned, with the two quickest 1/4 miler's in their stable, as well as being a player in the FASTEST L67 on the planet.

This topic was started so Marty could get opinions. And that's what we're delivering. Some are getting panties in a wad, others are participating in the topic by submitting the opinions asked for.

[Oldsman105]

Ok you form your opinions from Intense. I form my opinion from all the forums I have read including Clubgp which in a modding sense has plenty of expierence.

(done with that point) "Sorry for the hijack everyone"




Marty In my opinion I would say Gen V with N* tb. Having driven one of each example I prefer the Gen V combination. Also with the shortstack it tends to heatsoak and lose some of its effiency. Also marty if you don't pair a ported TB with the ported SC then you are shorting yourself of that combinations full potential. But then you need tuning which you then you might as well put a Gen V on. Also a more important point, the Gen V sounds better under WOT.

[2000Silverbullet]

My very biased opinion is to go for the GenV over the GenIII w/SSIC.

The GenV will lower temps about 25 F but even though the GenIII w/SSIC will drop temps 75 F, the actual temp difference between the two is really only 50 F.....and as pointed out, heat soak is an issue, so the gain could be negated.
You can drop another 50 F using alky injection or add the SSIC to the GenV.

[2003 SSEi]

My very biased opinion is to go for the GenV over the GenIII w/SSIC.

The GenV will lower temps about 25 F but even though the GenIII w/SSIC will drop temps 75 F, the actual temp difference between the two is really only 50 F.....

but you have to spin the Gen 3 faster to achieve the same performance as the Gen V so its really a wash

[agrazela]

With the price of Gen5 dropping, it seems to me that these days one could choose either boost mod path:

Gen3 --> Gen3/IC --> Gen5/IC

Gen3 --> Gen5 --> Gen5/IC

Depending on what you find a deal on at the moment, which path you have the time and energy for, etc.

In either case, as was alluded to, a tuner would no doubt be needed to get the full potential. Also, as was suggested, one would expect that by this point, other supporting mods (intake, exhaust, cam, wideband etc.) would already be there.

(Off-topic perhaps, but IMO if you see yourself going beyond simple stuff like intake and rockers--whether s/c or n/a--a tuner and wideband ought to be among your first investments, so that you can "learn your car" before adding power to it)

[2000Silverbullet]

but you have to spin the Gen 3 faster to achieve the same performance as the Gen V so its really a wash

The rating of each is the same 90 CFM per revolution. The difference is the Gen V is more efficient producing a tighter seal and less heat thru lower restrictions.

I am running the same 3.1 pulley with the Gen 5 as I did with the Gen 3 but I notice the lower temperatures.

We have enough issues dealing with leaking LIM gaskets.

Adding another cooling circuit could be a wash all right. Washing more coolant into the engine is another huge risk with an intercooler heat exchanger failure.
Not to mention the potential for vacuum/pressure leaks.

[Dirthead Racing]

I am running the same 3.1 pulley with the Gen 5 as I did with the Gen 3 but I notice the lower temperatures.

How much lower specifically? I've been wondering this for a while.

We have enough issues dealing with leaking LIM gaskets.
Adding another cooling circuit could be a wash all right. Washing more coolant into the engine is another huge risk with an intercooler heat exchanger failure.
Not to mention the potential for vacuum/pressure leaks.

You honestly think a meth injection system with a solenoid that can stick pumping water/meth into your intake is any safer than an intercooler? I feel your post is very misleading. The bonneville community should know the number of 3800 IC cars significantly exceeds the number of cars with meth inj out there. Also, none of the quickest 3800 vehicles use meth/alky injection nor is it used on any of the major 3800 performance parts manufaturers vehicles. ZZP experimented with it and dropped the idea for an intercooler. The 3800 intercooler was designed and marketed as a viable solution to the inefficiency and issues that come with meth/alky injection. Perhaps another gearhead could clear this up for the bonneville community? My $.02.

[danthurs]

Gen3 with the IC, cooling the charge is the best course to take.

[2000Silverbullet]

How much lower specifically? I've been wondering this for a while.

The minimum amount of heat added by compressing air to 8 psi at 100% efficiency according to Boyles Gas Law is 71*F.
The compressor's efficiency will add additional heat. For instance if it is 75% efficient, it will add another 24*F of heat.
I have noticed about a 10*-20*F drop in temps after converting to the Gen5.
Engine heat soak will add additional heat. My engine heat soaks to 160*F.
The normal running temp of my SC outlet air is 120*F with IAT of 50*F, so the heat gain is 70*F
At 8 psi the SC outlet temp spikes almost immediately to 190*F, so that seems to correspond to the 70*F rise due to compression.
That means the other 70*F is due to compressor efficiency and heat transfer from the 160* engine.

The water injection will knock the temp down to 140*F at WOT so it cools about 50*F. Not as much cooling as the SSIC that claims 80*F.

You honestly think a meth injection system with a solenoid that can stick pumping water/meth into your intake is any safer than an intercooler?

Ah, yes actually!
I was referring to the risk of heat exchanger failure and dumping coolant into the engine in a very high quantity.
The meth injection is a very low volume system. It is very fail safe also. The solenoid failed closed so the engine just bogged from running rich. Still ran a 13.5 with no injection.

[Dirthead Racing]

How much lower specifically? I've been wondering this for a while.

The minimum amount of heat added by compressing air to 8 psi at 100% efficiency according to Boyles Gas Law is 71*F.
The compressor's efficiency will add additional heat. For instance if it is 75% efficient, it will add another 24*F of heat.
I have noticed about a 10*-20*F drop in temps after converting to the Gen5.
Engine heat soak will add additional heat. My engine heat soaks to 160*F.
The normal running temp of my SC outlet air is 120*F with IAT of 50*F, so the heat gain is 70*F
At 8 psi the SC outlet temp spikes almost immediately to 190*F, so that seems to correspond to the 70*F rise due to compression.
That means the other 70*F is due to compressor efficiency and heat transfer from the 160* engine.

The water injection will knock the temp down to 140*F at WOT so it cools about 50*F. Not as much cooling as the SSIC that claims 80*F.

Good info