Driving with a blown headgasket? options?

[blinky99]

Recently been having starting problems with my car, replaced the ICM 3 times, most recent was car would start but sputter at idle sounding like it was gonna stall out this was 2 months or so ago this was after work one day and i drove it home [being only 3 miles from work] I blieve the service engine light flahsed at one point, but later when i started t in drive way went away.

Inspected the spark plugs and one wasnt seated all the way on the distributor, after that when i started it, the car ran smooth and no longer had the sputtering at idle. Had codes read at auto zone, found two misfires some EVAP issues and the catalytic converter [whcih i dont have]


This tuesday night car would crank but wouldnt start, weds same thing, thursday had it towed to shop, Guy from the shop calls me says he tried starting the car and it started fine, but has black smoke frpom the tail pipe. Ran codes got misfire, and checked for electrical, gas,and coolant and traced it back two a blown gasket on cylinder #2 $1,450 to replace and fix or a $1,600 engine swap with 6 month warranty.. Car has 167k mileage and ive had it for about a year and put a bit of money into fixing various issues and new tires al around.

I've never noticed the temp gauge going over 200, but the gas gauge doesnt work so perhaps that doesnt either. Nor have i seen it smoke like a over heated car does, or the thick white smoke from the tail pipe,[ ive had a previous car that had this happen]

How long will a car run with one blown head gasket?
safe to drive? I mostly drive to work 3 miles and the gym about 20 miles round trip.
any other fixing options?
I bought it from a lets say [in retrospect] less than honest person who likely knew of this and all the other issues... for 2400$ With the auto start i've put about 1,200 into it thus far

If i sold the car what would a appropriate price be?

[nos4blood70]

I'm willing to bet it's not a head gasket, especially since you haven't seen it over heat. Head gasket issues are extremely rare on 3800s. Additionally, the earlier 2000-2005 cars don't have issues with the cluster. Your fuel gauge doesn't work because the float sensor in the trunk is worn.

The car either has bad lower intake manifold gaskets, or the upper intake itself has gone bad around the EGR tube by the throttle body.

Has your coolant level been going down? Does your oil look like a chocolate milk shake?

[96 SSEi]

any other fixing options?

hi, you can try a auto tech in a can if you are desperate but it should be repaired properly to last a long time

if it is indeed a head gasket, a compression test will verify the issue.

ive heard good stuff about this..............http://rislone.ca/product/head-gasket-fix/

[blinky99]

I checked oil looked normal, smelled normal, picked car up from shop started fine, let it sit watched for smoke, a bit came out then stoped. Ive had a blown headgasket before on a thunderbird and know what the oil looks like and the amount of smoke from the tailpipe...

When i had my oil changed they mentioned i had a coolant leak, oil leak and trans leak, coolant level has gone down a bit since ive bought,but i know from reading the upper lower manifolds are known for failing on these models.

So either hes lying or what> said he did the chemical test i forget what its called.
also what causes intermittent crank but wont start problems? seemingly mostly when car is damp, after rainy conditions

[nos4blood70]

You can look between the heads and the lower intake and see if it has the updated metal style LIM gaskets.

You can also remove the throttle body and take a peak inside the upper intake and see if it has failed.

A crank position sensor would cause your starting issues, but I'd still check up on the upper intake. I almost lost my motor to a failed one a while back.

If you didn't over heat the car, it's 99.9% not a head gasket. The mechanic might not know 3800s well enough to know this.

[blinky99]

IF i drive it wouldnt i notice the temp gauge going past 200?as ive never seen it do so,at start its 0 and as i drive goes up to 200, so i assume its working correctly?


i opened the radiator metal top and it had what looked like metal shavings, like that black metal powder that moves when you hold a magnet near it, basically like that, ill take a photo tomorrow.

did some quick google searches someone mentioned "valve cover "gasket being mistaken for the head gasket?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthrea ... y-to-drive

[MKMike]

I'm willing to bet it's not a head gasket, especially since you haven't seen it over heat. Head gasket issues are extremely rare on 3800s. Additionally, the earlier 2000-2005 cars don't have issues with the cluster. Your fuel gauge doesn't work because the float sensor in the trunk is worn.

The car either has bad lower intake manifold gaskets, or the upper intake itself has gone bad around the EGR tube by the throttle body.

Has your coolant level been going down? Does your oil look like a chocolate milk shake?

x2

If you've been driving the car for over a year, then I doubt the intake gaskets were bad when you bought it.
As far as it being a common issue, that much is true but no one selling a car is going to warn you away from buying it because of something that may happen in the future.

As for the fuel gauge issue, in addition to what has been said, your SLE should still warn you when the fuel level is low and should display on the driver information center how many miles you can travel on the remaining gas.

also what causes intermittent crank but wont start problems? seemingly mostly when car is damp, after rainy conditions

Bad spark plug wires will do this---and they can also repeatedly burn out ICMs.

Simple test; After dark in a dark place, take a spray bottle with water in it and mist the wires.
If you see sparks jumping to metal parts, then you'll know the wires are shot.
Cheap enough fix.
Buy an ACDelco or Delphi wire set from RockAuto or Amazon.

Most likely when it did start, it blew out black smoke because of all the unburned fuel that had been dumped in while you were trying to start it.
For future reference, if you press the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor while cranking, it will stop spraying gas into the cylinders.
The pedal "trick" will not, however, solve the issue of the spark not getting to the right places.

I'd put my money on the spark plug wires being bad.

Even if the LIM gaskets and plastic plenum/upper intake manifold are bad, it should cost considerably less than a head gasket replacement job.

[blinky99]

i recently had [ by the same shop] new spark plugs and wires put in new, with the last time the ICM went, they mentioned bad wires some where as the reason the ICM kept failing,

Mechanic checked the spark plugs said they looked clean, which is odd as he said with a blown head gasket they would look white as coolant had leaked on them.

I think auto zone sells the blownhead gasket self test kit or rent, i know i have the color change fluid left still.

on another thought Two eerie things that happened when i started the car, which were large puffs of smoke coming from in front where the hood meets the windshield, but when i got out to look for a cause the smoke had stopped and dissipated, but the location had me worried.

im not worried about the fuel gauge working ust the temp gauge, i add gas every 180 miles or less

[MKMike]

If there is a crack in the coil, so the spark arcs elsewhere it will cause the same problem.
I'd still try the misting test, since you specifically mentioned it happens in dampness/high humidity.
Maybe a rear wire is routed much too close to an engine bracket or the wire for the oxygen sensor.
A shop where they're careless enough to leave a wire loose at the coil makes me wonder where else they may not be fully seated, as well as the possible wire routing issues.

As for the intake gaskets, here is a very interesting Facebook page with a list of signs that the LIM gaskets are failing.
Never saw such an extensive symptom list before.
https://www.facebook.com/GM3800Tips/pos ... 8071634026

[blinky99]

ty i will test that very good idea, now to find a spray bottle..]]

what about the smoke at startup>

another thing when i floor it it sounds like its cutting outits a hard noise to describe, but other cars when i floro the gas pedal at idle, it just goes one solid noise i guess, is that normal?

[MKMike]

The smoke upon startup, if it only happened once, could be from something that had spilled onto the exhaust when your mechanic was checking the car out
OR
It could be from bad intake gaskets or a bad plenum (aka Upper Intake Manifold) or even a cracked plastic coolant elbow.

Being unable to look at your car makes diagnosis via internet much more difficult than looking at a car in person.
You'll have to check things yourself or find a better mechanic, if you'd like to save money by avoiding unnecessary repairs.
Your mechanic may or may not be a liar.
He might just be ignorant.

What inspires little confidence in your mechanic are:
Failure to diagnose bad spark plugs wires until 3rd ICM failed
Wire left unseated at the coil tower
Headgasket blamed for most likely intake manifold gasket failure

Intake manifold gasket failures are so common on these cars that there was actually a class action suit against GM for this.
GM settled it and the intake gaskets and plenum have since been redesigned.
The head gaskets, on the other hand are rarely a problem on the 3.8 (3800) engines, whether supercharged or naturally aspirated.

Even mechanics who seldom work on 3.8L engines have access to this info on professional databases, such as Alldata, which wise mechanics subscribe to.

If you have been losing coolant lately--noticeable in the coolant reserve tank, then you have a leak.
Whether it is an internal leak or an external leak would be something for you to investigate.
Pressure testing is a good way to find coolant leaks but observation can be useful, too.
Have you seen coolant on the ground under your car?
Are there crusty deposits near the ends of hoses?
Is there coolant sitting in the engine compartment near the water pump or the radiator or elsewhere?
Internal leaks on this engine are most often bad intake gaskets and/or bad upper intake manifold.

A gasket that leaks coolant into the engine is a ticking timebomb.
Sooner or later your engine will be damaged.

It pays to learn as much as possible about your car, so that you can make informed decisions about recommended repairs, if you aren't inclined to perform them yourself.
The only substitute for knowledge is money.

[blinky99]

here is a photo of the radiator top and opening, seems like there's a funnel with a slot tore in it? I checked overflow tank and its at cold lvl. I use to trust this mechanic sho bu tsince its changed owners not so much, but some of the same mechanics work there who i've been seeing for years.through 3 different cars now.

-Ive not seen coolant on the ground, but with my oil changes they always mention the leaks i have,coolant, oil, trans fluids.

and the "black dust" i was talking about [or "crusty deposits as you called them?]
-there a was a lot on this piece when i first took it off like hanging from it


tore open funnel?

i can't even see the coolant level here due to that funnel type thing in the way

[agrazela]

OP, where are you located? Maybe a local member can have a peek at your engine.

(If you paid $2400 for a 15-year old H-body with 155k miles, I'm guessing the home of overpriced used cars...Southern California? )

[blinky99]

Michigan detroitish area and i was going by KBB pricing, i paid what kbb had up for the make model milage, can anyone help with the radiator photos?

Ive never seen a funnel like that in the radiator intake

[96 SSEi]

THE RAD OPENING with the funnel thing is normal: please get a magnet and see if that black sandy stuff is from engine
if it sticks to magnet, it is iron, if not its something else - did you put stop leak in rad ?

[MKMike]

GM actually put sealant pellets in the cooling systems of Bonnevilles when they built them.
In doubt?
See this GM video at around 10 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3BgdmZFSv4

The crud in your pictures is not what I was referring to as crust. The crusty deposits I referred to are where coolant is escaping from the cooling system.

The brown crud on your radiator cap is what happens when the cooling system is run when less than full.
It does not indicate nor refute intake manifold gasket problems.

Early in the video GM calls it something like the sandbox effect.

This post shows what a replacement IM gasket looks like installed http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... 24057.html
If the gaskets are black plastic it's best to change them.

You would do well to carefully read the list in the Facebook link I posted earlier.

To see what dex cool does to the original gaskets, look at the pics here http://www.dex-cool.net/

[blinky99]

THE RAD OPENING with the funnel thing is normal: please get a magnet and see if that black sandy stuff is from engine
if it sticks to magnet, it is iron, if not its something else - did you put stop leak in rad ?

i have not put any in but guy before me who knows, so the slot is normal too

ive read alot about dex cool problems and initially planned on changing it all out but kept reading varying opinions on what to replace it with , and how to replace it...

i saw the facebook post and some early symptoms match but others not really.

and replacing all upper and lower intakes is more than what im comfortable doing on my own though ideally id like to , but if i have blown head gasket i wouldnt waste the time, though still waiting to do my own tests to verify that

[MKMike]

Getting rid of the Dexcool at this point would do nothing one way or the other.
If your coolant has slowly disappeared and there is no external leak, then the intake gaskets have been deteriorating.
Stop leak will not fix it.
The chances of your head gaskets being bad are exponentially smaller than chances of the intake gaskets being bad.
There's no shame in not diving into a repair that is beyond your comfort level.

It's rather easy to borrow a cooling system pressure tester from autozone (shown here as pressure tester adapters) http://www.autozone.com/tools-and-equip ... ntal-tools
Make sure the coolant level is up to the neck of the radiator when you test it.
What you do is install the tool in place of the radiator cap and pressurize the cooling system to 15 pounds.
If the pressure slowly drops and you can't find any leaks at any hoses, the waterpump, or the radiator--then coolant is leaking internally.
Typically this is from intake manifold gaskets.

You or a friend or a mechanic can do an engine compression test.
A faulty head gasket will show up on these tests as a loss of compression in one cylinder or in 2 adjacent cylinders.
A faulty intake gasket will not cause a loss of compression.
If you are losing coolant then:
Compression OK = bad intake gaskets
Compression low in 1 or 2 = bad head gasket

Bad intake gaskets will not cause exhaust gases to leak into the cooling system. Bad head gaskets will.

Youtube has some mechanics such as Eric the Car Guy and Scotty Kilmer who demonstrate how to do a compression test.

[blinky99]

i did this test on at bird,but it was a chemical test that changed color in the presence of gas leaking or something, what type of coolant do i add? as i mentioned i cant even tell the level in the radiator, only the overflow tank.

so intake gaskets fail > head gasket fail? over heat > engine seizes? I feel like the overflow tank lvl has always been at the cold fill line 99%

new gaskets if the exact cause imay be fine just paying someone to do, but then the one mechanic i trusted i now dont. but some of the mechanics there are the same and i do trust them ,just not the new owner..'

They have been very helpful and more then willing to show me problems on previous cars, walking me through possible fixes and the cause of the problem, letting me walk around and generally not dismissive with all the questions i asked,which is why i kept going back to this place for over 5 years, and i could always negotiate the price with the previous owner who just would auto start giving me discounts instead of haggling.

New owner guy tried to haggle and he wouldnt then i flat out told him he can either drop his price or loose a life long customer whose been there for 5 years and whats worth more,at which point he gave me a discount...

[RJolly87]

There is disbelief in the diagnosis of the headgasket failure. The 3800 simply does not kill head gaskets.

If you are losing coolant, get the UIM and LIM gasket issues addressed, and flush coolant.

If you are not losing coolant, you can probably still stand a coolant flush, but if it's not overheating, or exhibiting any other symptoms of a head gasket failure, don't worry about it. UIM and LIM is still a bomb waiting to go off if they haven't been addressed.

in 13 years of forum membership, I have not seen a head gasket go on these engines without a good reason.