PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

I have read of the other problems out there, but not something with the surging turning into sputtering and then stalling like this.
Like many others on the forum here, I've had the surging problem on the highway. I've had this for maybe 6 to 8 months now. It hasn't been too severe. Typically it would show itself when

• at a speed between 35 and 65
• RPM's around 2000, but sometimes as high as 2500
• RPM's will go up and down by about 150 or so when surging begins
• boost at 0 to 5 PSI
• climbing a grade

Anytime this would happen, I could just ease off the throttle and it would stop, or give it more gas and the car would kick down a gear and the RPM's would go to 3500 and the problem would go away. It hasn't been a problem till today.

Today I was returning from the parts store (playing good Samaritan helping fix a water pump on a friends Olds), I was climbing a grade, 2000 RPM's, boost at 0, speed about 40, and the car did much more than the surging. This time it had more of a major miss, the RPM's went real low like about 1000, and the car slowed really fast. This was more of a sputtering like it was being starved for gas. I got off the throttle and back on it and it sputtered again. Speed was now down to about 25 MPH and the car was sputtering up the hill about 25% of the time. As the car got to the top of the hill, the sputtering stopped and all seemed fine again. About 1 mile down the road, I slowed to turn off a side street and the car stalled.

At this point, I parked it as I tried to fix the Olds (this didn't go well either), so it had time to completely cool off. It now was night and dark, so headlights are needed.

When I went to leave and go home, I started the car and saw headlights dim a tiny bit then return to normal brightness. At the time, I didn't think much of it. I began driving and the first stop was from about 15 MPH, no issue. I made the turn, got up to 35 MPH and at the next stop, the headlights dimmed and the car stalled. After seeing the dimming and stall, I decided I needed to observe the battery voltage on the DIC and RPM's on the tach. I noticed a pattern forming.

• speed over 30 and slow to a stop
• lights will dim and voltage on DIC shows dropping to battery voltage only, voltage is usually 14.6 - 14.9, it drops to 13.x, then down to 12.x as if the alternator has failed
• if I give it some gas it may recover from this low voltage condition and return to 14V solid as if there is no problem with the alternator
• if the car is slower than 20, it usually doesn't recover and stalls
• I've tried to put it in neutral, give it gas to keep running and brake with the other foot, this kinda works, but I don't brake well with the left foot
• only sputtered once on the way home, giving more gas did not drive through the sputtering like would happen with the previous surging issue

OK, so this is a very long post, but I'm trying to give as much detail as possible since I need to drive 60+ miles daily and I can't have this problem happening on the highways. Here's what I can provide so far

• car has 141K miles on it
• car did kick out the MAF code P0102, reset code, didn't come back with 6 stalls, but did come back after 7th stall
• car has had an EGR code off and on. Replaced EGR with brand new Delco unit less than 1 year ago. Cleaned EGR, still comes and goes
• looked at coils, all have white numbers, so they're most likely originals, tested ohms across the posts (6.13 / 6.35 / 6.18)
• MAF was replaced about 2 years ago with Delco MAF
• wires were replaced with Delco wires by dealer about 2 years ago when LIM gaskets were done
• spark plugs are an unknown....I never did them and I don't think the dealer did them with the wires, they weren't on the bill
• control module is an unknown as well, but since coils appear original, it likely is original also

OK, for those that have read this far, thank You!! I'm looking for the most obvious things to test first. I don't want to just throw money at it without good reason. I did try disconnecting the MAF and driving it. Voltage dropped to 12 and about 5 seconds later it stalled again. I turned around and came back home. I'm going to pick up some MAF cleaner tomorrow and see if that helps. I've possibly sourced some replacement coils from a junkyard that pulls parts. I'm considering the plugs, if I can get to the back ones. I'm not a little guy, so reaching the back 3 will be a problem for me.

Am I taking the right steps in the right order? Input from the collective experience of the board is appreciated.
Thanks

MAF can be diagnosed by tapping on it, usually with a handle of a screwdriver. If it affects the idle at all, it is usually bad. If it is consistently not running right, you can try unplugging it, and see how the car runs then. Flogging should be avoided with the MAF unplugged, but you should know pretty quick if it is any different.

I thought fuel filter, but if it's having electrical issues then not. With the multiple thrown codes and other electrical issues I'd say maybe a ground problem or batt connections.

Ok, latest development is the car starts then immediately dies with the MAF plugged in. Unplugged it runs. So I'm going to get a used MAF from Morad Parts and hope it fixes everything like it has for others.

Yet something else goofy is going on. Driving with the MAF disconnected, the drop off of voltage and stalling continues, but no check engine light! When I restart it, it doesn't come on with everything else like it should as part of the self diagnosis, burnt out bulb, right? Nope, stopped for gas and started the car, CEL is back on. This *dang* things possessed!

You may have a couple of problems. The surging could be a transmission problem. This article at Triple Edge Performance explains it.
http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com/TC ... ation.html

Your sputtering and stalling could be a failing O2 sensor. Check out Ryan's post.
http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... 18&t=29473

Can't test the MAF anymore since it won't stay started with it connected. Order placed and waiting for it's arrival.

CEL stayed on the entire trip home (10 miles) so that is now "working" as expected. I wonder if it wasn't showing before because I didn't go to a full key off position. I was always moving when it stalled, so I just went for neutral and fired it back up. The light came back on when I went to a full key off position and then back on. I'll see if that changes at all.

I don't have the means to test fuel pressure at this time, so I'm going to have to work on getting a way to test that. Not at all excited about a trans problem. If I can solve the stalling, I can live with the trans issue on hills (I guess). I think the key is to get it running stable again then go back and monitor TCC lockup on the trans. So that too will hold off till I get it running right.

As for the O2 sensor, I've not gotten a code for O2 yet. I can't continue to drive it in this condition to get to a point where the O2 sets a code. Is there any way to tell which one it might be without a code being set? I hate to replace good parts, and at $60+ each, it's not a trivial matter to be swapping them both.

Ignition module can give really crazy results w/o setting codes.

Also, are you hearing any 'clicking' (pre-ignition knocking) with heavy throttle around 3000 RPM (keep in 2nd gear). Does the car seem to have good power? If not, you might have a bad (plugged) catalytic converter. Easy to check. Just drop it down at the down pipe connection and see what it looks like. If the honeycombs are tight and clear - you should be OK. If the inside is loose or the insulating material has plugged the honeycomb, you may as well chisel it all out and see how it runs. Save the insides, they're worth abou $80 ... enough to by an O2 emmulator.

If the O2 sensor is causing a problem, it would be the front or pre-cat one. The rear one mostly just monitors the efficiency of the cat.

Thanks for the assistance this weekend...you guys have been a great help in taking some real crap out of what ended up being a pretty crappy weekend.

If I have to go the O2 route, it'll be the front first.

I parked the car today and won't be driving it till I get the MAF corrected. I did re-think each time the car stalled and times it didn't stall. If I recall correctly, it stalled every time I was coming off a speed over 25 and about 20 or so it wanted to stall or did stall. So I'm wondering if the TCC is locked when it shouldn't be and it's causing the problem. Is there any way to force the TCC to NOT lock up when driving?

I would think with a scanner and the right specs you could monitor the different TCC activities.

You can get a scanner at some major parts stores for nothing but the deposit for a day or two.

OK, here's the results.
While the car was down, I replaced the plugs with new Iridium plugs from Champion. When pulling the plugs I discover the previous plugs were NGK's. I went this route since the car is 100% stock and I don't want to have to touch the plugs again.

Used MAF from Morad installed, erased codes and drove the car on a 2 mile test spin. No issues. Drove car to work and home. On way to work (30 miles) car set an EGR code, but nothing notable in drive-ability aside from the surging that it had before. At this point I'm thinking the surging is a trans/TCC problem and the MAF is OK. I forgot to reset EGR code before leaving work (was a busy day). Returning home at the 24 mile mark, engine stumbles and voltage drops. Then engine stalls as I try to turn off the road.

I check for codes and I have the EGR code and the MAF code is back!!

I reset the codes and get the stumble within 1 mile and the MAF code is set again. Another mile and it stalls. I pull over, shut everything off, and reset codes again. I pull out of the lot and the MAF code is set again in less than 2000 feet on the road. To finish driving home I'm now doing the 2 feet driving to keep RPM's up at 1000 minimum to prevent stalling.

Is it possible that something else in the car can damage the MAF? This is the first day with the new MAF and I can't afford a MAF every day. Can the EGR code be involved with a MAF failure?

Now I'm at a complete loss as to where to turn next.

spoiledred94 wrote:I would think with a scanner and the right specs you could monitor the different TCC activities.

You can get a scanner at some major parts stores for nothing but the deposit for a day or two.

Oh yea, locally they all use the Actron 9145, same one I already own. It's capable of basic ODBII data points, reading codes and erasing codes, but TCC state isn't a supported data point. S I'm sol on that front, but after the new MAF code disaster last night, the TCC is the least of my worries right now. I'll eventually take it to the trans shop for the TCC issue, once I get some reliability back in the ability to drive.

Wiring could also be an issue too, not even counting possible PCM issues.

Kinda feel like that would just be throwing money at it at this point.

Sorry.

Do you know anyone that you could swap MAFs with as a test? I've gone the used route for the MAF a couple of times, just have them turn bad rather quickly.

Thanks for the help so far, I'm learning....but still not found my issue.

I've looked over the wiring as best I can. The main harness that the wiring runs into is solid and undamaged. The wires running to the MAF seem to be OK. I have to get a DVM on the connector and see if it's receiving the proper voltages.

I do not have access to another MAF to test with.

I checked for any blockage at the MAF screen, no blockage. Checked air cleaner for obstructions, nothing. I cleaned the EGR to try keeping it from setting a code. Drove the car 5 miles without issue, then at about 5 miles, MAF code set again.

I've tried looking at freeze data with the scan tool to see exactly what the car was reading when the code was set, but I keep getting a message that the computer is not responding to the freeze data request. I don't know if this is indicative of a bad PCM or not.

Any way of definitively testing the PCM to see if it's my problem? If the PCM is the problem, can it just be swapped, or does it require any programming to set it up before use?

Any and all help is appreciated.

Checked the wiring with a DVM, +12V on pink, +5V on yellow, and ground (0 ohms) on black/white. So this seems to eliminate the wiring harness.

Car is also constantly setting the EGR code too. Is 12578034 the right part number for our EGR?