PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

CMNTMXR57 wrote:They did in todays marketplace. Take a look at most other manufacturer's. They usually have a cradle to grave portfolio which usually consists of two to three core brands. Toyota for example has Scion, Toyota, Lexus. Honda has Honda and Acura. Ford has Ford and Lincoln. Chrysler has Dodge (rolling the new Ram line in here), and Chrysler. GM by contrast have Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Cadillac as divisions, then a litany of subsidiaries (such as Holden). Just the way it is. Not making a personal statement as to whether that's right or wrong, but if you want to remain competitive...

Hey, no biggie just saying. I'm comparing GM to other corporations like Microsoft or Kraft who manage multiple brands, many of which you'd be surprised that they own. GM relied on buyer loyalty to sustain sales and used badge engineering instead of being innovative and keeping people within the umbrella with competitive products. Axing brands doesn't really do much other than stem the bleeding which in Oldsmobile's case wasn't true. I do believe it cost GM more money to close them up than keep it around.

If they gave us something to properly replace what they take away, it would be a little nicer. Pontiacs can't be replaced by Chevys for some people. Most people though, that aren't into cars just don't care. But the small percentage of us that do enjoy cars, and form a bond with them as I have with mine, losing a nameplate like Pontiac or Holden makes one sad.

Assuming they're keeping Vauxhall? Maybe those will make their way to Aus as a replacement for the Holden?

Well, just remember when you guys get ready to sell your G8s, you know my screen name and I'll be waiting for a PM

Joseph, I'd sell you my 09 GT when the time comes. That way I can have matching 09.5 SRM twins. GT and GXP.

Also, from what I read, Holden as a brand will remain, just not their manufacturing facilities in Auz. Vauxhall is going to get either cut or severely reduced as well, IIRC.

Right. It'll be interesting to see where they move production to. I saw a rumor about someone buying the plant tokeep Holden production down undah. Probably just a rumor ATM.

If GM can't/won't bankroll it, very few others could, and no one with any business sense would...

This all goes back to the notion that there are some companies that are "too big to fail". While the economy may suffer because of this, it ultimately wasn't smart to keep the business going, if it really affects the economy that badly, the economy should have had measures to prevent this from happening in the first place. Ultimately, it's the Government smacking themselves. They got into this free trade agreement with those other southern asian nations who don't have the labor costs Auz does, therefore their vehicles are much cheaper, and they can't put any tariffs on them to make their companies competetive, yet turn around and have to subsidize their manufacturing sector (from the beginning, Holden was bought by GM when the Auz Prime Minister offered to subsidize automakers in '46), then something's messed up. The people are paying in taxes to build cars they can't afford to buy.

GM will be building all the imported Caprice and Chevy SS here in North America by 2017.

I may just take you up on that offer one day Ed But if Chevy keeps making the SS here in the US, I may be able to get into one of those too. They look pretty dang sexy in white from the pictures I've seen (the G8 does too haha), but I'd definitely have to swap the front bumper/grill out for the Holden style, it looks much better.

repinS wrote:More and more likely, my next car will be a Ford...

I said this to the wife recently, and it felt like blasphemy

SSEiMan01 wrote:Pontiacs can't be replaced by Chevys for some people. Most people though, that aren't into cars just don't care. But the small percentage of us that do enjoy cars, and form a bond with them as I have with mine, losing a nameplate like Pontiac or Holden makes one sad.

I couldn't agree more. When Pontiac went under back in 2010, I would have only been 14 at the time, and was a know-nothing when it came to anything automotive. It made me feel a little sad back then, but I really didn't know what was going on. Now, as an 'adult' (if you could call it that), and being on my second Pontiac, I've been feeling this sad feeling that Pontiac has past, and that I wont likely ever own a brand new Pontiac in my life. That alone is a pretty dissatisfying statement. If only GM could have made ends meet and just kept Pontiac....

And who knows? Maybe in the future, GM might bring Pontiac back. However unlikely this may be, I'd love to see Pontiac come back with a dedicated sports car performance lineup. Bring back the G8, the GTO, the Bonneville ( ), and maybe throw in some new models that had no way of hiding their performance aspect. Sure, there would have to be some cheaper, base models cars just so plebeians could buy them and make ends meet, but the real meat and potatoes of the brand would be performance.

I may have just turned 18, but I feel like if GM brought back Pontiac, and, for some reason, put me in charge, I think I would put Pontiac in the black just about every year.

Obviously at the current time a G8 would be my top choice, being a complete GM nut. They don't offer anything that really fills that sporty performance car. (At least not for me). Never really cared for Camaro or Vette and the new SS is ugly, IMO. (Not as bad as the Jap/Import cars, but still).

Honestly, if I was to buy a new car, I am highly considering a Challenger.

KelvinVV wrote:I may have just turned 18, but I feel like if GM brought back Pontiac, and, for some reason, put me in charge, I think I would put Pontiac in the black just about every year.

LOL, if a group of us were Senior management for Pontiac, we'd make so much money it'd be unbelievable! Or it would massively, unequivocally tank. I doubt there'd be a middle ground...

Problem is: Sooo many people don't care about their car anymore. It's just a means to get from A to B. They could careless what it looks like, what engine it has.

Seems like they are almost making cars disposable now (at least some of them) get in an accident or blow up your engine, just trash the car and get a new one.

Too bad somebody with lots of money isn't insane enough to try and buy Pontiac and revamp it.

Sounds stupid but it would be cool

The Camaro is moving to Lansing, Michigan from the Oshawa, Ontario flex plant. That frees up some capacity...

... it would be the ultimate tease if the SS was built here in Canada, but still isn't sold here

As much as a I would love a PSM M6 GXP, I think my GT is it for G8's. The plans I have for the car will make up for it anyway. For me, right now, the G8 is the closest thing to a true performance car I've ever owned, or rode in (besides Will's GXP). Yeah, my brother may have our dad's '69 Vette Stingray with a 454, but at the pace he's moving, I don't think that car will ever get done. Someday I may get lucky and own an '87 GNX, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I really think GM had something in bringing the Commodore's over here as Pontiac's. It allowed the brand to almost be completely focused on performance once again, and the nice thing was a G8 wasn't a re-branded Buick or Chevy (yes it was a re-branded Commodore VE, but how many of those were already being sold in the US?). That made these cars unique. I do like the SS a little, mostly the gizmo's that us G8 owners didn't get, but I don't think it's really going to sell much.

And that's where I agree with Clayton. A car like the SS just won't be as popular as it should because a lot of people just don't care anymore. They just want something to get them to where they're going and/or babysit their kids. An appliance. That's a real shame too, because cars used to have character and spirit. Nowadays, so many just seem like a washing machine on wheels.

I like turning heads with my cars. I've done it with all three. The LeSabre used to be well known and well liked in town years ago. The Bonneville seems hated, and I'm not exactly sure why that is.

Anyway, this got a little long. I guess I was just saying I hated seeing the G8 getting axed, and even though production of Holden vehicles will probably happen somewhere else, it just makes me wonder about the future of the SS. If that car gets cut after Holden is closed (for whatever reasons they want to use), that might just seal it for performance sedans for GM. Yeah, we'll still have the CTS-V, but they can be a bit pricey for some people.

SuperHbody wrote:

CMNTMXR57 wrote:They did in todays marketplace. Take a look at most other manufacturer's. They usually have a cradle to grave portfolio which usually consists of two to three core brands. Toyota for example has Scion, Toyota, Lexus. Honda has Honda and Acura. Ford has Ford and Lincoln. Chrysler has Dodge (rolling the new Ram line in here), and Chrysler. GM by contrast have Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Cadillac as divisions, then a litany of subsidiaries (such as Holden). Just the way it is. Not making a personal statement as to whether that's right or wrong, but if you want to remain competitive...

Hey, no biggie just saying. I'm comparing GM to other corporations like Microsoft or Kraft who manage multiple brands, many of which you'd be surprised that they own. GM relied on buyer loyalty to sustain sales and used badge engineering instead of being innovative and keeping people within the umbrella with competitive products. Axing brands doesn't really do much other than stem the bleeding which in Oldsmobile's case wasn't true. I do believe it cost GM more money to close them up than keep it around.

The difference is that those corporations like Microshaft, or Kraft (which I believe is a subsidiary of Altria, or better known in the U.S. as the evil tobacco company... Phillip Morris), are much more diversified. GM, Toyota, Ford, Honda are not! They make cars and car parts and in some cases other forms of transportation. You can add in companies like Delphi, at one time Frigidare (sp?), and a few others that weren't critical to the success of GM.

Hyundai is like the old GM. They have other offshoot businesses much like GM did a couple decades ago. GM had Hughes aerospace (parent of DirectTV), is a major stakeholder in a conglomerate Fuji heavy industries (parent to subaru), and up until a few years ago had EMD (ElectroMotive Division), which made locomotives.

Point is, they are shedding non-format essential businesses and concentrating on those that they do best.

Will, to your point, if this was the 60's, that is a fair point, but to me GM is GM. I don't really care if it's a Chevy, Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac, or GM truck, as long as it is GM. I'm not loyal to the brand lines, just GM. Why? Because they're all a corporate car underneath.

It is sad that Holden will no longer have its own Australian plant, but most of the brand's products are built elsewhere anyway. If you look at Holden's website you'll see most of their products are either of American or Asian origin:
http://www.holden.com.au/

In the past the Holden badge has appeared on Vauxhall/Opel products built in Europe, and even on Toyotas - the Holden Apollo was a rebadged Toyota Camry.

The only danger in shuttering the Australian plant is that Australian customers could potential lose interest in the Holden brand, as they will have lost one incentive to buy one as they would not feel they were 'buying Australian' anymore.

That said, Ford did the same in the UK. There's not a single Ford vehicle built in the UK now since the Transit van/truck factory in Southampton closed earlier this year, and there hasn't been a Ford passenger car built here since 2002. But regardless they are still the best selling car brand in the UK.

CMNTMXR57 wrote:Sorry, I posted mine too. Didn't see this in here.

High labor costs, strong AUD, and the fact that the government didn't want to continue to subsidize them (the Australian auto industry in general), led to this. It has little to do with poor management.

I know you won't agree, but that is poor management, at least in my book. - BC

00Beast wrote:

KelvinVV wrote:I may have just turned 18, but I feel like if GM brought back Pontiac, and, for some reason, put me in charge, I think I would put Pontiac in the black just about every year.

LOL, if a group of us were Senior management for Pontiac, we'd make so much money it'd be unbelievable! Or it would massively, unequivocally tank. I doubt there'd be a middle ground...

JMO, that's because you'd be working to make a better product and company, not trying to make yourselves insanely wealthy at the company's expense (stock holders, employees, suppliers & tax payers) - BC

How is a strong AUD and the government not wanting to subsidize you, poor management?

We can argue about the high labor costs, but that is something every company, especially older ones, with what are called "legacy costs", which amount to pension costs, agreed to with Unions, to keep labor happy and working and keeping production lines going, that get saddled on your B.S., a bad management situation? The other option was to close up shop way back then because the unions had them by the cojones.