PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

These are the last cars that people will be able DIY fix. All of the new cars are full of computers, electronic everything, plastic, and fuel efficiency measures. The 3.5 duratec in my 09 Flex has 8 to 10 timing points on it. How in the world will I do that myself, let alone be able to afford the machine to do it?

I wouldn't recommend a Bonneville to anyone I know. They would call me all the time, any time something goes wrong, even if I show them the Bville Club site. No one wants to DIY it any more, most people want to pay some one else and bitch about the cost later.

I still brag about the lower.... cost of ownership and MPG's I get out of mine to everyone and how it is paid for.

My reasons:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34232

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34001

and many more from all the generations.

Another note to keep in mind when mentioning the 2000+section being so busy, is the fact that the forum split. I know when I joined the original forum, it was quite busy in the 1992-1999 section.

As everyone else has pointed out, a lot has to do with how energetic you are and willing to get a little dirty.

MattStrike wrote:Not trying to pick on anybody here.

Back it up just a little bit more... Most of the issues I've been seeing are simple DIY fixes/regular maintenance items, across the H-body line, that don't require a $1500 mechanics bill. I get it, who has the time to maintain a vehicle? It's frustrating when things break... I realized, the things I was spending my time on (video games, movies, tv,) were getting me nowhere. So I quit the games, limited entertainment to weekends, and look what I did last year with a 26 year old "granny car"! People complain too much about how much it costs to have other people do things for them. There are places like RockAuto that can supply you with competitive prices on new parts, and junkyards for those of us who are even more stingy.

Anybody who can't turn a wrench or doesn't want to learn, I say let them buy foreign and trash those cars. How much time and effort does it take to replace the light bulbs in the radio? How much time does it take to inspect the suspension for a vibration or shimmy? How much can you learn and save if you take the time to understand something you rely on every day to do it's job without fail for 5, 10, or even 26 years?

What else do you own that works everyday, rain or shine or snow, for 15 years straight, and continues to do so reliably without an ounce of effort put into maintaining it? A 1975 Maytag dryer?

Out of curiosity, what spark plugs cost $14 each that lasted under 19,000 miles? Because the Iridium plugs in my parents '02 yukon 8100 lasted 250,000 miles, and they can be had for $6 a pop. How long does coolant last? The coolant in said '02 had 240,000 miles, before the heater core started leaking (hose connector cracked). And my last synthetic oil change cost me $30. Sounds like your local dealer is running quite the racket...

Before I begin, just to clarify..my spark plugs lasted more than 19,000 miles...I replaced them during my 19,000 mile ownership period. I'm sure they are still in the car today. I had the coolant flushed because it was dirty, not for any other reason.

Here is all the back up I have I guess...

Why I wouldn't recommend buying a Aurora/Related Product

During the summer of 2007 I was looking to replace my 1993 Buick LeSabre because...I didn't like it. I bought the LeSabre in 2006 after my 1992 Bonneville died of body cancer but was seriously disappointing in how different the two cars felt. (I really wanted another Bonneville but at the time I couldn't find one that was reasonably priced).
I researched online the Oldsmobile Aurora, a car that I had drooled over since seeing the first ones as a kid. I saw the problems they have but being overly excited to get the last Oldsmobile flagship, I search for the perfect one. I've kicked myself in the @$$ for not taking those online reviews to heart (see edmunds.com, or any other car review site and look these cars up).
After driving a few of them, I settled on a 2001 silver V6 with a sunroof. The body was excellent, everything worked, no check engine lights/etc. Under the hood it had been maintained with good fluids and repairs at a local GM dealership (all GM replacement parts).

The next day I opened the trunk and found my tire well was flooded. After researching online, talking to dealers, and talking to g body owners I found out this is a common occurrence. I spent the next four years trying to track down that leak as I learned they all leak....from different places.

A few months later my steering wheel started clunking....as did my neighbor's Bonneville....and another neighbor's Aurora...it was the famous intermediate steering shaft...which had been redesigned by GM and since redesigned again because even the replacement clunked after a couple of years!

The car started having the famous highway vibration that the fullsize Pontiacs/Olds/Buicks/Cadillacs of 2000-2005 develop. I cannot tell you how many times I had the tires balanced, car aligned, etc. It always came back! An example of these complaints can be found:

http://cadillacforums.com/forums/suspen ... y-sts.html
http://aurorah.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... read=12648
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct ... 9e819/5387

Mine was never solved....it made driving on the highway an un-enjoyable task.

Then the transmission started to clunk....a little harder...a little harder...bang! The car would shift erratically, which made diagnosing it a nightmare until I had the codes scanned (the check engine light didn't come on a first). The input turbine sensor is a speed sensor that tells the transmission how fast the car is going so it knows when to shift. When it goes bad, the transmission shifts abruptly. Sometimes the shift is smooth (a soft shift I learned it is called) and other times it felt like my car got hit! I had the sensor replaced...$1544 by a GM dealership because the first few private shops I took the car too wouldn't work on it! When I told them the issue was in an Oldsmobile they said no problem...when I said Aurora they wouldn't go near it. What choice did I have? I needed the car....so the dealer was my option. It worked....for a while...but the transmission never felt the same. (I switched dealerships after this to go to one where the service manager is a friend of the family...we didn't go their at first because the distance from out house to the shop).

I found out that this is a common issue with these transmissions...especially in the V6 Aurora:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Oldsmobile ... ting.shtml

Then one day the climate control started making noises...it sounded like a CD that was stuck in the stereo....and it drove me nuts. It would happen for a few days, go way, and back it came. Like so many things on this car, it was an irritation that wouldn't show itself to be diagnosed....just like my dash lights that came on and went off (I know another 2001 Aurora owner with the same problem and her car has 35,000 miles!), wind shield wiper that wouldn't work when it rained (GM and I had a heated phone exchange over that), interior trim parts that fell off, etc.

There was the day that the sunroof started leaking...from a drain...I came outside and found my car was flooded with water on the driverside!

The day I hit a pot hole on I-90 in Mass and bent the spring perch....it wasn't a huge pothole! I didn't see other cars on the side of the road!

The day my fuel gauge stopped working...that was fun......

It leaked oil from the valve covers at 7 years old, it needed new shocks and struts (understandable) for an astronomical sum (something like $1500 due to the air shocks), it had constant problems with the air pumps, keyless entry that was unreliable, hood herpes, disappearing coolant (I've since learned that the Northstar based engines seem to have head gasket troubles and this is how it starts), bad oxygen sensors, bad axles, but mostly the electrical gremlins.

I never enjoyed this car..it was always something...one more repair, one more part order, I just wanted to be able to change my oil and be done...just once....just one time

One night, my brother borrowed the car. I got a call about 9 pm that he was on the side of the road...the Aurora had stalled. I came out to get him just before the tow truck arrived...it was a cold December night and there was my car on the side of the road...it wouldn't start. By the time the car was towed back to my house an hour later, the batter had been drained stone dead. Not a flicker of light from anything....dead. With that I said screw this car, and put it up for sale.

I've met many other Aurora owners, some though the Oldsmobile Club of America, where I am an National Adviser for the Cutlass Ciera/Cruiser models. (If you have the January 2012 issue, my car is on the cover). I am a certified car guy, having 8 cars in 8 years. I love car, in fact I usually have 3 at any given time. I work on my own cars for little things and bring them to trusted friends for other work. Every g body owner I meet in person tells me their car started to fall apart after 6 or 7 years on the road. My Bonneville driving neighbor now has a Lincoln, my Aurora driving neighbor now has an Impala, and I have my 93 Bonneville. A woman I know at work with an Aurora with 35,000 miles has a check engine light that will not go out after visiting numerous mechanics. She has owned 11 Oldsmobiles in her lifetime, but doesn't think she will buy another GM product after this. A few weeks ago an early 2000's Bonneville was at the local shop. I talked to the mechanic who told me how the owner was fed up with the electrical problems.

Would I recommend a GM g body car? No.

Would you recommend a Bonneville?

Hell No!

These cars even when new require constant repair and maintenance.

My view when I'm asked to recommend an old car for someone who doesn't enjoy doing their own wrenching is;
How much are parts and are they readily availble?, it will almost certainly need some repairs over time.
How easy is it to work on?.
Does the make/model have a reputation for trouble.

By the time any car is over 10 years old with 100k miles under its belt price of parts and ease of fitting takes precedent over reputation, Toyota parts cost more than Ford or GM ones as a rule.

What about an H Body?, parts are available everywhere, and nothing is a real pain to work on. Window motors are a weakness, mine need replacing but I can live with that as I can the squeaks and rattles that have developed as the car gets older. But I think it is sound from a mechanical point of view, no more likely to leave you stranded than any other mainstream car of its time, and not cost more than most others either.

With any used car you are taking a risk, but if you find an HBody that has been looked after properly and you like the way the car drives you shouldn't be disappointed, but it will be a risk.

Roger.

If the friend that asked me if I would recommend a Bonneville was talking a minute earlier about how nice the new Kia shizzbox is, then I would say no way in hell. Do I really want to see some freak that will put pink hubcaps and tin foil his grille to look cool driving a real mans car with a blown buick powertrain?

The W body cars, and now this Bonneville for me have been winners, but just like everyone else says, if you are taking the god *dang* 1/2" wrench under the car with a crescent in the other hand to change oil, you need a Kia on warranty. For any person that knows what end of the wrench to use, or the difference between a 1/2" and 3/8" wratchet, these cars with the 3800 iron horse under the hood are a gem. Think of how many communities are there to help you answer questions if you know what to ask, and yes, you can find the answers to most issues. There will always be plaguing issues that sometimes never go away. Again, if these bother you, get a Kia, and complain about the issues that come up on that hunk of junk.

I may seem to pick on a Kia, but I would recommend a Bonneville, or a W-Body to any fix er up guy that was looking for a vette with 4 doors. Quite simply, the feeling of slamming a vette or mustang into the rear view mirror with a modified blown 6 is worth its weight in gold. The Bonneville rides like a caddy...the GP handles like its on rails, and they both have boost...

DrOlds88 wrote:The car started having the famous highway vibration that the fullsize Pontiacs/Olds/Buicks/Cadillacs of 2000-2005 develop. I cannot tell you how many times I had the tires balanced, car aligned, etc. It always came back! An example of these complaints can be found:

Wouldn't that be 'infamous'?

I see a good example of people throwing money at a car without taking the time to properly diagnose the problem, then complaining when the problem persists. It just takes somebody who is willing to put the effort in to find the root cause, and your average mechanic probably does not have the desire to do that for you. If they did then they would have no problem chasing down an intermittant electrical issue. They do like taking money from people though.

DrOlds88 wrote:Would I recommend a GM g body car?

I thought we were talking H-body?

I would like to clarify one point:
My posts are specific to the g body Aurora and it's Bonneville/LeSabre, Cadillac relatives (2000+).
I have had several H and C body cars of the two prior generations (see my signature). They were always excellent cars. My 1988 Delta 88 ran until it had nearly 336,000 miles with few problems. The only time it need a serious repair was a transmission rebuilt at 160,000 miles. The quality of these earlier cars is what keeps bringing me back to them. I recently purchased my current daily driver, a 1993 Bonneville, due to my high regard for their quality.

It is the later cars that seem to have the quality issues. I've never owned a first generation Aurora or a g body Riviera so I cannot comment much on them outside of interaction I have had with owners who have told me mixed reviews of them. I do know from my own personal experience with a g body Aurora (2001) and people I have known well with 2000+ Bonnevilles that I would not recommend those models.

I concede that all cars have their problems...each model car has its own quirks that define its reputation, but there was a marked difference in quality between my 2001 Oldsmobile and other 2001 cars. My Aurora was falling apart a few years ago...my brother's 2001 Regal and girlfriends 1998 Sunfire are still running without much trouble.

Aside from window regulators and a few minor issues, my car has been great. 125k on the car. I've had it since about 60k miles, and everything is in good condition aside from a wheel speed sensor that I haven't replaced yet.

Am I the only one who doesn't get all the talk about the '00+ models being unreliable? Maybe I'm just too easy on mine. I do half a dozen trips to the drag strip every year, but I also baby it most of the time, watch all the fluids and belts, and I never beat on the car before it warms up.

devin1986 wrote:Aside from window regulators and a few minor issues, my car has been great. 125k on the car. I've had it since about 60k miles, and everything is in good condition aside from a wheel speed sensor that I haven't replaced yet.

Am I the only one who doesn't get all the talk about the '00+ models being unreliable? Maybe I'm just too easy on mine. I do half a dozen trips to the drag strip every year, but I also baby it most of the time, watch all the fluids and belts, and I never beat on the car before it warms up.

These are the common problems, how many of them have you had?
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25362

01bonneSC wrote:

devin1986 wrote:Aside from window regulators and a few minor issues, my car has been great. 125k on the car. I've had it since about 60k miles, and everything is in good condition aside from a wheel speed sensor that I haven't replaced yet.

Am I the only one who doesn't get all the talk about the '00+ models being unreliable? Maybe I'm just too easy on mine. I do half a dozen trips to the drag strip every year, but I also baby it most of the time, watch all the fluids and belts, and I never beat on the car before it warms up.

These are the common problems, how many of them have you had?
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25362

-wheel speed sensor
-rear shocks
-cupholders
-window regulators
-fuel door rust
-filthy wheels

Wheel speed sensors and regulators have been excessive, but otherwise it just seems like routine maintenance to me. I love my h-body. Like I said though, I take really good care of my car, and I wouldn't hesitate to take it on a 1000 mile drive tomorrow if I had to.

I would recommend one based on mine. Purchased with 42K miles, it now has just shy of 145K. My list of repairs:

~85K miles-Upper intake
~100K miles-lower intake (Don't know why I didn't have it done with the upper, did this myself just to be safe)
~110K miles-rear shocks and front end links
~125K miles-water pump
last weekend-MAF sensor

There are factors that affect what breaks on a car and what parts need to be replaced. Things to consider: what climate the car was driven in, how the car is driven, how well the owner kept up on maintenance, etc. We bought a 92 SE Bonneville and put over 70,000 miles on it. During that time we changed an alternator, the coil pack, and serviced the AC. That's it. We've put over 60,000 on the 97 SLE and changed the AC compressor, water pump, and maybe one alternator. Some parts are going to wear out.

Would I recommend it? Depends.

They do favor open roads. They take miles like nothing, and can be very cheap to run. My opinion is that the 2k+ was not constructed as well, and certainly has more common issues. I am dealing with typical 20 year old 171k mile car stuff. Struts here, UIM/LIM there, battery, tires, etc.


In 4.5 years, the stupids:
Master Cylinder # 3 is due for replacement
Just put in RR Drum adjuster spring #4
Evasive maneuvers during heavy braking are downright dangerous
Interior assist handles break off if somebody sneezes

But my true love:
Cruise speed, 79mph to be precise, especially on a nice cool night. It feels like that is what this car was designed and built for. One word: Ownage.

I would recommend a Bonneville to someone if I knew it has had many of the big common issues fixed, but I would not recommend that a person run out a buy a Bonneville.

I have had my 02 SLE for 5 or so years and 100,000+ miles and I have had the LIM/UIM done twice, new tranny, all suspension has been replaced and a number of other things. This is not my first Bonneville (3rd one, and two of which were 2000+; Step-dad has one also) and the issues can be huge if you are not the kind of person that regularly checks up on your vehicle or has to pay someone to do everything.

I agree completely that for the number of common issues it is still very cheap and easy to fix. I have had a lot of cars in the short 15 years I have been driving and none of them were as cheap as the B-villes to get major work done. I had a Mazda that had less issues, but it cost me twice as much to fix any thing on it. Example; transmission rebuild for the Bonneville all upgraded parts; $1,800. Mazda; transmission from a j-yard; $2650.

Would I recommend a Bonne to a friend? I have, and it's worked out fine. I have never been stranded by mine, and the issues have usually been relatively inexpensive to fix myself, and easy. I am also anal about maintenance, so that has helped a lot...

MattStrike wrote:

DrOlds88 wrote:The car started having the famous highway vibration that the fullsize Pontiacs/Olds/Buicks/Cadillacs of 2000-2005 develop. I cannot tell you how many times I had the tires balanced, car aligned, etc. It always came back! An example of these complaints can be found:

Wouldn't that be 'infamous'?

I see a good example of people throwing money at a car without taking the time to properly diagnose the problem, then complaining when the problem persists. It just takes somebody who is willing to put the effort in to find the root cause, and your average mechanic probably does not have the desire to do that for you. If they did then they would have no problem chasing down an intermittant electrical issue. They do like taking money from people though.

DrOlds88 wrote:Would I recommend a GM g body car?

I thought we were talking H-body?

Due to how similar the g body Aurora and h body 2000+ Bonnevilles are, I have lumped them together. I called them both g body to try and separate them from the older H body (1999 and older) models.

Infamous would have been a better word choice there.....spelling intermittent correctly would be good too (I'm a Social Studies teacher, I notice these things).

While I use my car as an example of why I wouldn't recommend these cars, I am clearly not the only one who has had a problematic ownership experience.
This forum is an enthusiast website, which means:
1. Most people here own and like these cars. There are some people who join because they need help with fixing/understanding their cars, but most people here modify their cars, are mechanically inclined, or go so far as to race or show their cars. For the most part, people here have joined this forum because they like their car.

2. The problem with my Aurora, or the other cars I mentioned was never the "one" issue. It was the constant problems...one after another...after another. Fix the steering shaft and the sunroof leaks. Fix the sunroof and the dash lights go out. Fix the dash lights and the sunroof leaks again. Clearly these cars are old....but some of these issues come from poor design and workmanship at the factory, not age. When it is common to have highway vibrations, leaky trunks, steering shaft issues, cooling issues, electrical gremlins, etc you have a line of cars that has issues deeper than "it is old" or "it was abused".

I don't say any of this out of hatred for GM, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile. I am a fan of GM, who has owned 8 GM cars, pushed numerous people to purchase GM cars, even participated in a focus group for GM. I've been an adviser for the Oldsmobile Club of America for years, and have recently been writing articles for them and their chapters. While I am not a mechanic, I am more than capable of carrying out many repairs on my own and I have. Maybe I've never rebuilt and engine or transmission, but I know enough about automotive repair to understand the repair being made to my car by a mechanic.

I didn't mess with the Aurora because it was a complex nightmare. Everything from a pain in the ____ cartridge oil filter (a minor inconvenience) to the need to have tires balanced on a particular machine (Hunter something or other, the name as escaped me) because a typical wheel balancer won't do the job (this is how GM says you can fix the highway shake, along with changing the tires to another brand). To flush the coolant it needed a kit to get the coolant out (I don't know if the Bonnevilles are like this).

I will be curious to see if like the Aurora, will Bonneville GXP owners have to deal with some of the gremlins of Northstar ownership? Expensive parts (compared to the 3800), head gasket issues, and tight packaging. Its been a while, but didn't the Northstar have the starter in a hard to get to position....I know the back sparkplugs can be tough.

In conclusion, I still wouldn't recommend the 2000-2005 Bonnevilles just based on their close relationship with the Aurora (a car that keeps me up at night).

Would I? I did one time, but then changed my mind and told him not to get an 00+. Electrical and body (mostly related to leaks, which I still need to fix) have given me too much trouble. The engine is solid as a rock, as any 3800 would be, except mine has random, ghostly misfires and knocks that I just can't seem to track down. Although, 3 months after getting it, the engine required a complete top end tear down and rebuild, but that was due to previous owner negligence.

Now, if they could find a 92-99 H-body that was in great to excellent shape, I'd say go for it!! In the 12 years I've owned my Buick, I've hardly had any major repairs (transmission was replaced before I got the car), as most has just been regular maintenance. Heck, even my alternator is still original (and the car has 312,000 miles on it). However, major repairs I need to do soon are the fuel and brake lines, but that's to be expected on an 18 year car (built Oct. 94) that lives in Ohio.

I'm with others, the 2000+ may not be the car for someone who doesn't/can't work on their own car. I can turn a wrench and do a decent amount of things on my cars, but I lack the tools and knowledge to tackle a lot of the bigger stuff (engines, transmissions, suspensions). At least most parts for these cars are cheap, $35 for an O2 sensor, when my neighbor had to pay over $400 for 2 O2 sensors for her Camry (and that didn't include installation).

I'm fairly happy with my Bonneville, but I can't say that someone else would be, especially if they are the type of person who sees their car as something that gets them from point A to point B.

I have not had many problems with my 94 Bonnie -- we owned it from the beginning and (to be honest) there was a period where we did not regularly change the oil or keep up with the maintenance, but the car still plugs along -- passed 200K and still going strong (for its age).

I like the 92-99 body style, am looking around for a replacement (just in case) -- is there any year that is desired in that range or one to avoid? Imagine the bullet-proof engine is about the same for all years? If properly tuned up, I can get 24mpg with it -- any years better for gas mileage or reliability?