PontiacBonnevilleClub.com

00Beast wrote:http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP9449-BrakeScan-System-Diagnostic/dp/B000YJ053O/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1327691364&sr=8-5

Check it out, maybe it has changed. That works with virtually no GM cars before 2000.

That is great.

Check these out:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/obdii-usb- ... -12v-42827

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/tech2-obd2 ... opel-73851

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/vag106-car ... lack-58552

Suggestions? I am very much tempted to get any of these.

Larry.

Hello Everybody,

Just and update:

1. Sometimes ABS light is off for he whole day, and it comes back as i drive passed some road bump

2. Sometimes it is is as soon as I start the engine

3. At time I can hear the funny ABS self test rattling noise that is within the break line on the break line, and sometimes that self test rattle is quite long

4. This weekend I went to scrap yard and got some relays, and some ABS connecting wires with connectors so I will be testing real soon the Ohms and a voltage while rotation the hub as well as the voltage wile the ignition is on to see if I get 5V at the each wheel wire ABS harness connector from the ABS center.

I have noticed that ABS line wires are very well protected in heavy duty nylon/rubber jacket hose, however on the down side their connectors do expose the wires itself, and I do not find that part to be quite reliable in the long run, and would think that would be the cause of multiple ABS issues, IDEAS, COMMENTS?

I truly hope my problem is not the main unit, but he tests will show.

Can you guys make my post ACTIVE? As it it not solved. Thanks.

CHARLIEMAX wrote "The ABS control module is in the front left of your engine bay, on the sidewall, below your charcoal canister."

I have taken a picture and would appreciate your input telling me weather that is the #3 on it.

Also for my curiosity what is the #s 1 and 2?

Here is the picture:


Thanks, and awaiting for your great input guys,

Larry

#1 is your cruise control actuator, what controls the throttle when you click "cruise".

#2 & #3 appear to be your wiper motor and its transmission, respectively.

The ABS actuator is under your air-box area, down near the frame. All your brake lines go into and out of it. Front means towards the front of the car as you're sitting in the driver's seat.

Thanks 00Beast,

Appreciate that. Will follow up with data upon my testing.

Larry

Little question: does anyone know how to test ABS relay with Volt or Ohm mater, and what values to look for?

Thanks,

Larry

Hello Everybody,

As the weather is getting warmer, it allowed me to do the WSS testing.

So far I have done just the two front ones but I think I found the problem. Here are the results:

1. Left hub/WSS sensor:
1a.When the hub is still (no rotation) - Resistance in Ohms is INFINITY (I think I red in some thread that this means it
is fine)
1b.When I jacked up the car, and put the hand brake on, removed the front wheel, put that wheel under the front door,
under the car, under the main frame for security, shifted the gear shifter into neutral and when needed rotation, just
put into the drive and gently released brake pedal (not the hand brake!) and never added any acceleration, the
differential started to turn the hub that one that is easier to turn. Thus my hub turned somewhere as fast as 1st
gear turns it at 900 to 1100 rpm. When I measured resistance I did not get any. However when I measured VAC I
got range of 0.68 to 0.72 VAC and that was within range that CharlieMax Has mentioned and within range 0.3 to
0.72 VAC max. With ignition on WSS receives 4.95VDC. So this is fine.
1c. Same way I tested the right WSS. With ignition on WSS receives 4.96VDC. So this is fine.
But here is peculiar finding, at still: 1.784 kOhm (kilo Ohm). And when rotating s described above the resistance
value is in range from 14 yo 18 to 26 to 31 mOhm (mega Ohm). The VAC value is 1.5 VAC. Thus I think this bearing
WSS has a problem.

I have chose this way to turn the hub because my drill and brush would not be able to turn the hub even on neutral. Plus it is easier to test with the test leads like that, only you have to make sure the car is well ANCHORED, and not on slant driveway, and to take safety precautions, also not to put you body part close to the rotating studs and they could make bones and skin into you know what very easy.

QUESTION: is there any way to change the WSS sensor, without removing the Hub from the car? Can it be swapped? Anybody tried that?

I will test also the rear WSS when the good weather come back again, but I think the rear WSS rarely fail, as it is always front hubs. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

And do you think the Ohm and Voltage measurements point toward the faulty right WSS hub described in 1c above?

Thank you very much.

Larry

PS: please unmark this topic as closed, as it is not closed yet. Thanks.

I believe you found a bad WSS/hub like you suspect. There is no way that I'm aware of to change the WSS separate from the hub itself. And I don't think I've ever seen a sensor for sale by itself that you could plug into the hub.

The WSS is integrated into the hub. It and the hub are inseparable.

Here is an update for the rear WSS test:

RL: Idle Ohm: 0; Ignition On VDC output at connector: 5.58 to 5.64; RPM Drill Brush Test Ohm: 0; RPM VAC: 0.3 (this time my other voltmeter did not have very sensitive range for less then 1VAC thus this value is not very certain).
RR: Idle Ohm: 0; Ignition On VDC output at connector: 5.71 steady; RPM Drill Brush Test Ohm: 0; RPM VAC: 0.3 (this time my other my voltmeter did not have very sensitive range for less then 1VAC thus this value is not very certain).

Now the ABS Light is constantly on. I tried to wiggle the WSS connection on the faulty Front hub, but still ABS light is on.

I will replace faulty font hub as soon as I can and I will update with more news.

As it is summer now, I do not expect to replace the hub soon. This topic could be closed, until further update is available.

Thank you all for your great inputs.

Larry

laimisl wrote:Here is an update for the rear WSS test:

RL: Idle Ohm: 0; Ignition On VDC output at connector: 5.58 to 5.64; RPM Drill Brush Test Ohm: 0; RPM VAC: 0.3 (this time my other voltmeter did not have very sensitive range for less then 1VAC thus this value is not very certain).
RR: Idle Ohm: 0; Ignition On VDC output at connector: 5.71 steady; RPM Drill Brush Test Ohm: 0; RPM VAC: 0.3 (this time my other my voltmeter did not have very sensitive range for less then 1VAC thus this value is not very certain).

Now the ABS Light is constantly on. I tried to wiggle the WSS connection on the faulty Front hub, but still ABS light is on.

I will replace faulty font hub as soon as I can and I will update with more news.

As it is summer now, I do not expect to replace the hub soon. This topic could be closed, until further update is available.

Thank you all for your great inputs.

Larry

Larry...

I got your PM, but my Internet time has been tied up this week with my Motley Fool Portfolio analysis. Anyway..

Yeah. It's like any other sensor, you can splice/solder a new one on. If the hub is OEM, there's a bazillion of them at any yard, on any 96-99 LeSabre, 88, or Bonneville.

Note that it's far from my fav answer to the problem, and falls in the category of "Redneck fix". For some reason my '95 has liked to nuke front wheel hubs and WSSs (in its defense, the car runs like a perfectly wound clock, looks like chit, will likely outlive me until its trans goes, and has 220K mi on it)

I spliced one in for a couple of months. But I only intended it temporary, because I was just starting to learn about the hubs/brakes/suspension of the Bonnes. There was a very faint "whirrr" on the wheel when driving, and it was likely the WSS went because of the tremendous amount of excess heat to which a bad hub subjects your entire wheel/brake assembly.

I believe there is some real good engineering sense to replacing the wheel hub, if the WSS goes bad.

If you are going to change the wheel-hub..... I don't know if anybody came up with a best-of-breed replacement hub. The Tildens have worked OK for me. DEFINITELY get the three-prong puller from AutoZone. it's a free rental. Some hubs come off easily, some you can end up pounding for hours, if you don't have a puller.

Thanks CharlieMax,

Do you mean the WSS actually is the thing to where the connector plugs into?

So the wire that comes from the hub is just to send the signal? And the WSS then analyses it and transfers via the connector to the wiring?

I would be very interested to see how could I replace WSS while the hub is mounted. I know it sounds rednekish but sometimes those things just work.

My understanding was that I had the front right WSS that was faulty. That was replaced not too long ago so it should come off quite easy.

As for the bearing it does not feel to do any "whirrr" sound or vibration, so I take I was not lucky with the WSS itself.

Larry

laimisl wrote:Thanks CharlieMax,

Do you mean the WSS actually is the thing to where the connector plugs into?

So the wire that comes from the hub is just to send the signal? And the WSS then analyses it and transfers via the connector to the wiring?

I would be very interested to see how could I replace WSS while the hub is mounted. I know it sounds rednekish but sometimes those things just work.

My understanding was that I had the front right WSS that was faulty. That was replaced not too long ago so it should come off quite easy.

As for the bearing it does not feel to do any "whirrr" sound or vibration, so I take I was not lucky with the WSS itself.

Larry

Here, I think you need to see one. This is just an example. http://tinyurl.com/cha7v94

This is the hub with the sensor/connector coming off of it. It connects and sends a signal to your ABS brain.

Oversimplified.... We have a kinda' 2-in-1 brake system. One part for the discs in the front, and another for the drums in the back. So let's just use a front/back example, which might not be technically accurate, but you can get the idea.

What happens is that the hubs are sending a signal telling whether a wheel is spinning or not. And at what rate.

Say you are in some decent snow and for-whatever-reason have to brake hard.

Wham. For a split second your front wheels are locked.

But you are sliding not stopped. The ABS System knows this because the (WSS reports) fronts aren't turning, but the back wheels still are slightly (based on the rear WSS reports). You are about to lose control in some *ss-end swinging around skid.

To stop that from happening, the ABS Brain backs-off the pressure on the front brakes, so the turning rate of the front and rear wheels starts to equalize (by reading the turning speed signals from the WSSs)

It works similarly from right to left side, when you brake on some black ice that's under just one side of the car.

So that connector you see in the picture can get fried, but technically the "sensing" is inside the wheel hub. My first time, I had clearly fried that transmitter/connector plug (often referred to as the sensor, myself included), and that might be your problem. But not necessarily.

And wheel hubs can be dangerously shot, long before you hear/feel anything definite from them. The simplest way to check is to jack the wheel off of the ground (ALWAYS inserting a jack stand, before you touch anything) and push/pull on the tire/wheel to see if it wobbles. IMHO, there is no amount of wobble, that garners a "I'll need to get to that soon." The wheels should be absolutely rock steady. If not, attend to it immediately.

FWIW, my cars seldom go up on a lift more than once a year for Inspection. My mechanic always checks the wheels for wobble. One time he called to ask if I had noticed anything when driving. The hub came off in two pieces.

I hope this helps with your process.

Thanks CharlieMax,

This clarifies a lot.

When you wrote "My first time, I had clearly fried that transmitter/connector plug..." did you mean that you saw that the connector had kind of melted plastic around it?

I will definitely try replacing the connector to see if that helps.

I also thought if I would just splice it together with the wires by bypassing the connector (I have extra wiring that I took from scrap yard for testing) that may help to identify weather the connector is done and the problem or is it inside the sensing unit inside the hub.

Lets say I go to the splicing up route to eliminate potential possibility of faulty/fried connector, do you think the system would right away test positive and ABS light could go away, or should all 4 wheels have to turn on the road for that to happen?

Larry

Update.

The connector did not seem to be fried. I have removed the wires from connector and connected to the other wire but same results. Then I tested those removed wires coming from HUB with Ohm and Volt meter and all showed signs that said inside WSS sensor is done.

I guess if you have the Ohms and VAC readings coming from it in some range that either is excessive or it means you are getting the reading but the reading is wrong as WSS is fried.

Also as ABS light is on I though removing 3rd relay from maxi fuse box (3rd from drivers side) will make the light go away as well s permanently deactivate the ABS system. However as soon s this was done I have Check Engine light on. I scanned it with OBDII and it gave me: P1652 - Powertrain Induced Chassis Pitch Output Circuit.
QUESTION: did I remove wrong relay? So which one then?

So I put that relay back and check engine is gone and not coming back.

QUESTION: would pulling right relay out will turn off the ABC Antilock light off from the dash board? Or the only way is to pull the light bulb (if yes what is the procedure?).

Thanks,
Larry

UPDATE:

Replaced the hub with WSS sensor. ABS ANTI-LOCK light is still on. I am quite upset, after so much work still same problem. Tried disconnecting battery, still same issue.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Below are the previous values of OHM testing on hubs:

"
1. Left hub/WSS sensor:
1a.When the hub is still (no rotation) - Resistance in Ohms is INFINITY (I think I red in some thread that this means it
is fine)
1b.When I jacked up the car, and put the hand brake on, removed the front wheel, put that wheel under the front door,
under the car, under the main frame for security, shifted the gear shifter into neutral and when needed rotation, just
put into the drive and gently released brake pedal (not the hand brake!) and never added any acceleration, the
differential started to turn the hub that one that is easier to turn. Thus my hub turned somewhere as fast as 1st
gear turns it at 900 to 1100 rpm. When I measured resistance I did not get any. However when I measured VAC I
got range of 0.68 to 0.72 VAC and that was within range that CharlieMax Has mentioned and within range 0.3 to
0.72 VAC max. With ignition on WSS receives 4.95VDC. So this is fine.
1c. Same way I tested the right WSS. With ignition on WSS receives 4.96VDC. So this is fine.
But here is peculiar finding, at still: 1.784 kOhm (kilo Ohm). And when rotating s described above the resistance
value is in range from 14 yo 18 to 26 to 31 mOhm (mega Ohm). The VAC value is 1.5 VAC. Thus I think this bearing
WSS has a problem.
"

Larry

Hi you all Bonneville fans,

Hope you all are enjoying summer and not so many fixing comes up so more free time.

However me I have still unsolved things, so I would very much appreciate your input.

To this topic I have and Update:

1. As you see as post before, I have replaced the right bearing. ABS light still on.
2. I have messed with ABS relays #2 and #3 and swapped them before replacing and after replacing the bearing still no changes.
3. I have scanned the ABS system at mechanic. He found following codes in the memory:
3a). C1211 ABS Outlet Valve Coil RF Circuit Open
3b). C1213 ABS Outlet Valve Coil RF Circuit Short To Ground
3c). C1214 ABS Inlet Valve Coil RF Circuit Failure
3d). C1216 ABS Inlet Valve Coil RF Circuit Short To Battery
3e). C1218 Lamp ABS Warning Output Circuit Failure
I think it showed old codes hat were attributed to the right right bearing hub with WSS. Any comments?
Mechanic was able to erase the above codes.

However Mechanic was not able to erase the following code: C1258 Speed Wheel LF Comparison Failure.

Any comments on that please so I could get any good pointers to right direction?

Thank you very much,

Larry

If you paid for the scan, it's has no value if they don't tell you what is wrong with the car. You're not taking a car to a mechanic to get an error code. You're going there for a diagnosis of the problem. With all due respect, is what I told you do months ago. So that any time directed at problem-solving would be focused on solving a specific problem.

The ABS System and its Diagnosis was kept out of the OBDII/DTC Diagnosis system because the Federal Trade Commission and other country's governing bodies made it exclusive (voluntary) of the international Standard of OBDII.

With control over ABS System, GM and most other carmakers decided to make a it a high profit margin proposition to jack revenues for their Dealers. GM dealers make their highest profit margins on service and repairs. Way higher than selling a new car.

IMHO, you go back to the mechanic and ask him what needs to be repaired/replaced.

Getting the code alone is like going to the doctor, and he says you are sick (which you already know, or you wouldn't be there) but he won't tell you whats wrong with you. What are you supposed to do? Take 300 medications, one at a time, until one of 'em works?

Thanks Charlie Max,

I very much appreciate your kind input.

I will plan a visit to those guys again. On the side note just as I have replaced the bearing I started to hear some lightly humming noise, as I have quite unique set of hearing skills (I say so from my experience compared to any mechanic) I suspect some bearing may be bad again and thus the WSS, which would keep the ABS light on.

I will update on the progress, and thanks again.

Larry

UPDATE.

So after RF bearing was replaced, ANTI-LOCK error was still there.

Then with time the LF bearing started to hum and make noise.

When this was replaced immediately all back to normal, ANTI-LOCK light off and me and Bonnie happy.

Thanks all for your patience and great advises and help.

Larry

STATUS: SOLVED