Mods to Run E85?

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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by SacramentoE85 »

willwren wrote:Ethanol is only 65% efficient, and the cost to produce it (in fossil fuels) is ridiculous compared to what you get. You have to ALSO look at our overall electricity production and what fuels are used to produce it. In other words, dig below the surface. I'd rather you find it on your own. It'll make more of an impact.
And for the record, I LIKE Bacon, and the current price SUCKS.
No, pure ethanol contains 65% of the energy of pure gasoline. E85 contains 76.5% of the energy of pure gasoline (.65/.85). E85 contains somewhat more than 76.5% of the energy of today's popular E10 gasoline.

You ADMIT! It is not petroleum that is mainly used in ethanol production, but instead natural gas and coal. Petroleum is used for electricity in some areas of the country, but I would wager that way up in the Midwest the coal and natural gas is much more plentiful and economical than imported petroleum.

I LOVE bacon, and the price to me as a U.S. consumer is WAY, WAY lower than for people in other nations. If you were a pork producer, you would say the price of bacon is way too LOW. That's because basic commodities such as grains and meat lag the inflation rate compared to most other consumer goods. Simple economics.

Still waiting for your direct link. I have been on the US Dept of Energy website many many times and have not found where more petroleum is expended producing ethanol. Methinks that is because it no where states that. I can't post what isn't there. If it were to be found, I would post it, but if it's not there it's a waste of time. Maybe that's what you want?
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by J Wikoff »

I can't find any tables with info on race gas. But I did find this little nugget.

http://www.energy.gov/media/FactSheet__ ... Prices.pdf
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by willwren »

John, now you can factor in the cost to produce it in foreign oil which is the source of the bulk of our electricity, as well as the cost to distribute it.

You're getting close. But what's the point? Are YOU going to convert? Are you seriously considering it? Can our current production capacity even fuel 25% of the cars on the road today if production were DOUBLED and didn't cost us more fossil fuels to produce and distribute it?

Every idea has a passionate crowd that ignores the deep-rooted dependencies that most people wouldn't consider. What do you do, John, if you are in a State that has E85 available, your car is setup to run it, and you travel to a State that has 4 locations that pump it for you?
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by SacramentoE85 »

J Wikoff wrote:I can't find any tables with info on race gas. But I did find this little nugget.

http://www.energy.gov/media/FactSheet__ ... Prices.pdf
IMPORTANT find, J Wikoff!! Here's the text, for those who are not good at using/posting links...

For Immediate Release
June 11, 2008
202-586-4940

Fact Sheet: Gas Prices and Oil Consumption Would Increase Without Biofuels
Secretary of Energy Samuel W. Bodman and Secretary of Agriculture Edward T. Schafer sent a
letter on June 11, 2008 to Senator Jeff Bingaman addressing a number of questions related to
biofuels, food, and gasoline and diesel prices. The letter is available at http://www.energy.gov

Without Biofuels, Gas Prices Would Increase $.20 to $.35 per Gallon.

• The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) estimates that gasoline prices would be between 20
cents to 35 cents per gallon higher without ethanol1, a first-generation biofuel.
• For a typical household, that means saving about $150 to $300 per year.
• For the U.S. overall, this saves gas expenditures of $28 billion to $49 billion based on annual
gasoline consumption of roughly 140 billion gallons.
• Ethanol use has exceeded the requirements of the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS), established
in the Energy Policy Act of 2005, demonstrating that refiners and gasoline marketers have an
economic advantage to use more ethanol than is required by law.
Biofuels are Reducing America’s Dependence on Oil.
• Without biofuels, DOE estimates that the United States would have to use 7.2 billion more
gallons of gasoline in 2008 in order to maintain current levels of travel (a 5 percent increase).
This increased demand for gasoline would drive up the price Americans pay at the pump due to
basic supply and demand.

Gasoline Consumption Reduction
Attributed to Ethanol Use
Gasoline Displacement 2007 2008
(estimated)
Thousand Barrels / Day 357 472
Billion Gallons / Year 5.5 7.2

Biofuels are Reducing Greenhouse Gas Emissions.
• DOE scientists found that corn ethanol from the U.S. reduced greenhouse gas emission 19
percent compared with gasoline, when the full “life cycle” of the fuel is considered – from
growing it to producing the fuel and burning it.
• DOE scientists estimate that 13 million tons of greenhouse gases were avoided in 2007 due to
biofuels production and use.
• The next generation of biofuels—cellulosic—made from switchgrass, corn stover, wood chips
and other non-food sources promises even more significant reductions in greenhouse gas
emissions than corn-based ethanol – reductions of more than 86 percent compared with gasoline.
1 This estimate relies on data on the current price difference between ethanol and gasoline and the elasticity of supply
for petroleum. Consequently, a range is presented.
2

Today’s Biofuels Account for Only a Small Percentage of the Increase in Global Food Prices.
• Other factors are responsible for the majority of the increase in global food prices:
Higher oil and gas prices leading to increased costs of fertilizer, harvest, and transportation;
Increased demand as developing countries grow and people improve their diets;
Two years of bad weather and drought leading to poor harvests in parts of the world;
Export restrictions imposed by some countries.
Future Biofuels Will Alleviate Much of the Concern about Competition Between Food and
Fuel.
• Cellulosic biofuel feedstocks can be produced on land not suitable for crops or it can be collected
from forest residues.
• The Administration has announced more than $1 billion for the research, development, and
demonstration of new biofuels technology, with a special focus on cellulosic biofuels. Funding
supports:
Bioenergy Research Centers where scientists work together to make the conversion of plant
fiber to fuel more cost-effective and efficient.
Commercial-scale and small-scale biorefineries, to chart the course toward
commercialization of these technologies and test breakthroughs and novel processes.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by GoldenBullet »

is E85 not subsidized? (last i knew it was) so the "price break" in it is just purely the government covering some of the cost? (which in turn comes out of our pockets)
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by radomirthegreat »

That's also what I know about it. The true cost is somewhere about double, but it's too costly to produce without the US government helping to pay for it with taxes coming from us.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by SacramentoE85 »

willwren wrote:What do you do, John, if you are in a State that has E85 available, your car is setup to run it, and you travel to a State that has 4 locations that pump it for you?
A conversion to Flex Fuel E85 means that you can use either gasoline or E85.

Every month there are more and more E85 pumps. If you're going to drive your car for another 10 to 20 years as was previously suggested, there will be thousands more during that time, at the current rate.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by willwren »

Wrong link above.

What IS the percentage of fossil fuels used to produce electricity used to make Ethanol?
What is the transportation cost?
What is the actual COST in foreign oil in the production of Ethanol?

MOST of that is on the DOE website if you want to know what you're looking for.

Radomir, yes it is very much subsidised. But that's not the point I'm making.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by willwren »

SacramentoE85 wrote:
willwren wrote:What do you do, John, if you are in a State that has E85 available, your car is setup to run it, and you travel to a State that has 4 locations that pump it for you?
A conversion to Flex Fuel E85 means that you can use either gasoline or E85.

Every month there are more and more E85 pumps. If you're going to drive your car for another 10 to 20 years as was previously suggested, there will be thousands more during that time, at the current rate.

Dead wrong.


FFV's that is TRUE, because PCM is programmed to DETERMINE which fuel it is based on allowable timing advance.

A CONVERTED vehicle cannot ADAPT. It's tuned to perform for one or the other.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by SacramentoE85 »

GoldenBullet wrote:is E85 not subsidized? (last i knew it was) so the "price break" in it is just purely the government covering some of the cost? (which in turn comes out of our pockets)
YES, E85 is subsidized. So is petroleum production. There is no fantasy "free market," such as McCain would expect you to believe. Big Oil receives $Billions in the way of grants, subsidies, and tax loop-holes; even while they make record $Billions in profits.

While, imported petroleum costs all U.S. taxpayers at least $10 per gallon due to the military being in the Middle East and financing our national debt (in the $Trillions), much of the debt being due to imported petroleum.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by radomirthegreat »

Willwren just double-posted! :bstooges:
SacramentoE85 wrote:much of the debt being due to imported petroleum.
You had me going there until I read this. I need another link before I believe this.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by SacramentoE85 »

willwren wrote:A CONVERTED vehicle cannot ADAPT. It's tuned to perform for one or the other.
Agreed (partially)--if you go so far as to change the compression ratio (milled heads, etc.) the regular 89 octange unleaded probably would not run well on a 12:1 ratio. Though, if you had an octane booster you would probably be fine (Any ideas on this being true?).

Yet, if you do not change the compression ratio but use the other methods (Flex Fuel chip that can use either gasoline or E85 or any mix), supercharger, high flow injectors, fuel pump, etc. it should still run very well on regular unleaded, right?
radomirthegreat wrote:
SacramentoE85 wrote:much of the debt being due to imported petroleum.
You had me going there until I read this. I need another link before I believe this.
Imported petroleum contributed to our deficit $293 Billion out of $708.5 Billion in 2007!

http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepoli ... eficit.htm

http://gas2.org/2008/03/10/us-will-expo ... l-in-2008/

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/03 ... -us-t.html
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by myfirstbonnie »

Here is a link that I found interesting. It is of an actual test they did.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternati ... ticle.html
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

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SacramentoE85 wrote:Imported petroleum contributed to our deficit $293 Billion out of $708.5 Billion in 2007!

http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepoli ... eficit.htm

http://gas2.org/2008/03/10/us-will-expo ... l-in-2008/

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/03 ... -us-t.html
:angry7: That is good to know, but it's just not right. Horse and carriage, anyone?
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by J Wikoff »

myfirstbonnie wrote:Here is a link that I found interesting. It is of an actual test they did.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternati ... ticle.html
I believe that's the one mentioned earlier found later to have a faulty ECU.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

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myfirstbonnie wrote:Here is a link that I found interesting. It is of an actual test they did.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternati ... ticle.html
Yes, there is this test and one that Consumer Reports did, both on this same model of Tahoe. It was later discovered that there was a bad error in the virtual flex fuel sensor and they were recalled. I have not seen a correction or retraction from either publication.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct ... 9e1cf/2140

http://db.theautochannel.com/db/Chevrol ... ?year=2007

http://www.chevroletforum.com/recalls-a ... 62/TSB.htm
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by 00Beast »

SacramentoE85 wrote:Sorry for now for the pork producers. Their economics go up and down just as do the corn producers. Gotta take your lumps when they happen, and enjoy the good years when they happen, and use the right financial tools to smooth it all out. If you don't you're a fool, and will be out of business soon. It's already happened in the past with corn farmers and pork producers, and it will happen again. Pork prices continue to increase as the export markets demand more pork. Pork producers CAN use 15% DDGS, if they are near an ethanol plant. I imagine either Christensen Farms is not economically near enough to the ethanol plants to cover the transportation costs, or they are so anti-ethanol that they can't stomach putting it in their pigs' stomachs. I know this stuff--part of my direct family is also suffering from higher feed prices with pigs. I just don't follow the bandwagon of false information, and instead admit what is the reality of the situation.
That is surely ignorance in it's finest. Pigs CAN eat 15% DDG's, but the pigs that do are overly fatty, and have very little marbilization, which is what the overseas markets demand, very lean, highest quality meat. We live 20 miles from the home office of CF, and within 40 miles of CF there are 3 or 4 ethanol plants. CF cannot afford to feed DDGs to their hogs, because the consumers demand lean, High quality meat, especially Japan. Since they only eat a few ounces of meat at a time, they want the best they can get, and DDG's cannot supply that. My dad and I talk a lot, and I'm privy to information that some people at CF don't even know, and we have talked a lot about this. The demand of corn from ethanol is what is driving the price up, due to all the plants opening and taking more and more corn away from our hogs. I'm not saying everyone has to eat pork at every meal, or anything remotely like that. But if all our corn went in to our gas tanks, then there would be none to feed our livestock, which feeds us (except Vegetarians/Vegans). I oppose ethanol, and Everyone who promotes it does so wrongly, with false information.


Edit: Oh, and by the way, not only does my dad work for CF in the office, my MOM is out in our hog barns everyday, tending to 9,000 CF contract finishing hogs, and 1,000 nursery hogs. So we sit on both ends of the table.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

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radomirthegreat wrote: :angry7: That is good to know, but it's just not right. Horse and carriage, anyone?
Hah, I would definitely have to move to the same neighborhood of my workplace then!

Though, the horse would have to be fed with feed produced using petroleum and fertilizer. Air conditioning could be a tough thing to give up here when it's 105 in the shade... :sad5:
00Beast wrote:That is surely ignorance in it's finest. Pigs CAN eat 15% DDG's, but the pigs that do are overly fatty, and have very little marbilization, which is what the overseas markets demand, very lean, highest quality meat. We live 20 miles from the home office of CF, and within 40 miles of CF there are 3 or 4 ethanol plants. CF cannot afford to feed DDGs to their hogs, because the consumers demand lean, High quality meat, especially Japan. Since they only eat a few ounces of meat at a time, they want the best they can get, and DDG's cannot supply that. My dad and I talk a lot, and I'm privy to information that some people at CF don't even know, and we have talked a lot about this. The demand of corn from ethanol is what is driving the price up, due to all the plants opening and taking more and more corn away from our hogs. I'm not saying everyone has to eat pork at every meal, or anything remotely like that. But if all our corn went in to our gas tanks, then there would be none to feed our livestock, which feeds us (except Vegetarians/Vegans). I oppose ethanol, and Everyone who promotes it does so wrongly, with false information.


Edit: Oh, and by the way, not only does my dad work for CF in the office, my MOM is out in our hog barns everyday, tending to 9,000 CF contract finishing hogs, and 1,000 nursery hogs. So we sit on both ends of the table.
[/quote]

Hey, no ignorance here... Just listening to the researchers who know this issue at MN and IA universities...

http://www.ipic.iastate.edu/publications/IPIC11a.pdf

http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-swine/ ... _Swine.pdf

They did not find significant difference for feeding DDGS to pigs at these levels. Perhaps the information you are hearing is faulty? Have you or your mom been able to do a study? That would be interesting if the major universities were wrong on this, since they are the main source of this vital information.
Last edited by SacramentoE85 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by GonneVille »

SE85, it's gonna take a heck of a lot more to convince ME on E85 than you have time for. I am a truck driver. That means that fuel is my biggest concern. E85, when you factor in subsidies, costs more per gallon than gasoline. FACT. There is no infrastructure to distribute it except by truck. FACT. The production and distribution of E85 causes more pollution that that of gasoline. FACT. The burning of E85 produces more greenhouse gases and other pollutants for the same distance driven. FACT.


Also, fact: Processes have been developed for using bacteria to produce petroleum from biomass. In the lab, in small batches at low efficiency, they have produced petroleum at price equivalents considerably lower than market price for oil. The first experimental production plant will be online soon.
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Re: Mods to Run E85?

Post by 00Beast »

SacramentoE85 wrote:
radomirthegreat wrote: :angry7: That is good to know, but it's just not right. Horse and carriage, anyone?
Hah, I would definitely have to move to the same neighborhood of my workplace then!

Though, the horse would have to be fed with feed produced using petroleum and fertilizer. Air conditioning could be a tough thing to give up here when it's 105 in the shade... :sad5:
00Beast wrote:That is surely ignorance in it's finest. Pigs CAN eat 15% DDG's, but the pigs that do are overly fatty, and have very little marbilization, which is what the overseas markets demand, very lean, highest quality meat. We live 20 miles from the home office of CF, and within 40 miles of CF there are 3 or 4 ethanol plants. CF cannot afford to feed DDGs to their hogs, because the consumers demand lean, High quality meat, especially Japan. Since they only eat a few ounces of meat at a time, they want the best they can get, and DDG's cannot supply that. My dad and I talk a lot, and I'm privy to information that some people at CF don't even know, and we have talked a lot about this. The demand of corn from ethanol is what is driving the price up, due to all the plants opening and taking more and more corn away from our hogs. I'm not saying everyone has to eat pork at every meal, or anything remotely like that. But if all our corn went in to our gas tanks, then there would be none to feed our livestock, which feeds us (except Vegetarians/Vegans). I oppose ethanol, and Everyone who promotes it does so wrongly, with false information.


Edit: Oh, and by the way, not only does my dad work for CF in the office, my MOM is out in our hog barns everyday, tending to 9,000 CF contract finishing hogs, and 1,000 nursery hogs. So we sit on both ends of the table.
Hey, no ignorance here... Just listening to the researchers who know this issue at MN and IA universities...

http://www.ipic.iastate.edu/publications/IPIC11a.pdf

http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-swine/ ... _Swine.pdf

They did not find significant difference for feeding DDGS to pigs at these levels. Perhaps the information you are hearing is faulty? Have you or your mom been able to do a study? That would be interesting if the major universities were wrong on this, since they are the main source of this vital information.[/quote]

No, we have not, because the hogs aren't ours, they belong to CF, and eat what CF puts in the bin, that they have researched to be the best feed for their genetics, and their hogs. What the researchers in Iowa probably didn't take into account was the genetics. CF has their own genetics for their hogs, that has the best qualities for their combination. They have spent years on this, and millions of dollars, and they know what the hell they're doing. They aren't just some schmuck feeding hogs on a lot for butcher. They are a $400 MILLION dollar company, and my dad is in charge of that $400 mil., and he has been a farmer his whole life to boot. Until you have 40+ years of experience farming and dealing with livestock on an almost daily basis, your opinion doesn't mean as much to me as my parents's, because theirs is based on what they know and have learned in the real world, they aren't trusting some data from research in a controlled environment on a small sample of hogs. I'm not saying your opinion is nothing, just that my parents's opinions mean a lot more.
Bye Bye:
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RIP sandrock
Sirius wrote:Think about it. You’re tooling down the road in your Prius, knowing full-well that this thing being green is as big a sham as federally mandated ethanol-enriched gas, Russia pulling out of Ukraine, and Obamacare.
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