Mods to Run E85?

[radomirthegreat]

Probably what's going on here is people believe they can crank up boost pressure and timing and still run better with E85. That is possible. If you could run on 105 octane just to avoid KR when increasing timing, but your engine with massive timing and boost would just barely beat a less modified engine at the track. Wikoff, you're probably not going to beat willwren without tons of other mods outside just fuel and tuning.

If you can squeeze every little bit of power out of the engine and can't do any other physical mods, you could put in E85 and crank up timing. Maybe you'd stay at the same quarter mile time if you didn't do it right, and then maybe you'd do it right and gain a bit of performance. But with straight 110 octane gasoline, you would gain incredibly more power and do way better than you could ever do with E85. It's not just a difference of 5 in the octane rating.

[J Wikoff]

I can eat other things. I'm not aware of anyone that has pulled off a pork-only diet, and I'm sure the Jewish don't care about pork prices.

If could run 105 octane E85 for 2.97 (price quoted yesterday just across town in Dunlap http://e85prices.com/illinois.html ) versus 100-110 octane race fuel (can't find a listing, I'm sure it's not cheap) I certainly would. I could probably run a few pounds more boost while I'm at it.

And a stock 94/95 L67 would whoop your at the track because there's less ENERGY in that fuel, even if you adjusted your timing far enough to take advantage of it, which would cost you (costly) tuning.

I could do that with my 95 on pump gas (10% ethanol 92 blend) right now. The performance factor is no argument when you look at the lower energy per gallon. OCTANE only gains you timing. But the actual energy available in the fuel is severely lacking.

Now you know that's not true. The energy deficit is made up by the advantages of higher octane. Just like being tuned and setup for premium versus regular.

edit to include previous quote

[radomirthegreat]

I'm divided on that. I believe what I wrote because I haven't seen anything different, and my belief makes more sense. You would need to run so rich that you'd have blow-by. How well does E85 lubricate bearings?

[willwren]

Radomir, OIL lubricates bearings.

[radomirthegreat]

Will, I know. Read the post again.

[J Wikoff]

I was referring to what Bill said before you posted, rad. I hadn't seen your post yet.

[radomirthegreat]

Cool beans, sir. Cool beans.

[J Wikoff]

What's a gallon of 110 gasoline cost?

"if I could" meaning also setup for it... tuned, the componentry I'd need, all that. And then I'd be able to DD it, as opposed to needing a dual mode tune for normal gasoline and race fuel.

[radomirthegreat]

The last time I checked here, about 2 months ago, it was $5.36. A gas station with 110 is closer to me than one with E85.

[J Wikoff]

I've got one 5 minutes away. 7 within 20 miles, 21 within 50. I don't have a clue where to find 110 octane.

[willwren]

I can eat other things. I'm not aware of anyone that has pulled off a pork-only diet, and I'm sure the Jewish don't care about pork prices.

If could run 105 octane E85 for 2.97 (price quoted yesterday just across town in Dunlap http://e85prices.com/illinois.html ) versus 100-110 octane race fuel (can't find a listing, I'm sure it's not cheap) I certainly would. I could probably run a few pounds more boost while I'm at it.

And a stock 94/95 L67 would whoop your at the track because there's less ENERGY in that fuel, even if you adjusted your timing far enough to take advantage of it, which would cost you (costly) tuning.

I could do that with my 95 on pump gas (10% ethanol 92 blend) right now. The performance factor is no argument when you look at the lower energy per gallon. OCTANE only gains you timing. But the actual energy available in the fuel is severely lacking.

Now you know that's not true. The energy deficit is made up by the advantages of higher octane. Just like being tuned and setup for premium versus regular.

edit to include previous quote

Uh-uh. Timing will gain you SOME of that back, but there is STILL less energy per gallon, even if ignition happens at exactly the right moment. But that's moot. What's the point? What are you going to do for a PCM, John? How much will you spend on upgrading your car and getting the 2nd or 3rd burn on your Eprom for a fuel that actually costs us the use of MORE foreign oil?

From a practical standpoint, what's the Engineer in you say?

[SacramentoE85]

The reason the Protein animal market is so Volatile is due to the Ethanol demanding all the corn that we desperately need to feed our animals, and since the price of corn is going up, the animal price has to go up, but the animal market can't react as fast as the Grain markets, which is why my dad is so stressed out. It is the people who think that Ethanol is going to save us, whereas it is just a Band-Aid over the alternative energy market. Ethanol is the cause of raising food prices, and a gallon of ethanol takes more foreign oil to make vs. what it replaces.

Sorry for now for the pork producers. Their economics go up and down just as do the corn producers. Gotta take your lumps when they happen, and enjoy the good years when they happen, and use the right financial tools to smooth it all out. If you don't you're a fool, and will be out of business soon. It's already happened in the past with corn farmers and pork producers, and it will happen again. Pork prices continue to increase as the export markets demand more pork. Pork producers CAN use 15% DDGS, if they are near an ethanol plant. I imagine either Christensen Farms is not economically near enough to the ethanol plants to cover the transportation costs, or they are so anti-ethanol that they can't stomach putting it in their pigs' stomachs. I know this stuff--part of my direct family is also suffering from higher feed prices with pigs. I just don't follow the bandwagon of false information, and instead admit what is the reality of the situation.

Actually, most of the food price increases is due to foreign nations' economies surging, causing them to demand more high quality foods and meats. Additionally, droughts throughout the world have caused grain shortages, driving the price up.

Since the cattle can eat more DDGS instead of grain, they will concentrate around the ethanol plants. There's still over 70% of the corn that is not used in ethanol, and pork uses WAY less than 70% of our corn. It's a lost argument... Ethanol just simply is causing very little increase in meat and food prices.

Those spreading the false info are the multi-national food companies (General Mills, Kraft, Pilgrims Pride, others of the Grocery Manufacturers Association) and livestock organization. They built their models around cheap, highly-subsidized grains. Now they are using this excuse to increase their profit margins. Seriously, check it out, the food companies are making more now than ever. That can't be caused by higher expenses. Basically they're complaining about higher expenses while taking advantage of this false story to pad their profit margins, taking advantage of consumers.

Pork will have its day again, and at the same time we will increase ethanol production. That will happen when the droughts ease and the economic prosperity decreases in foreign nations.

And along the same lines.....more foreign oil is USED to manufacture Ethanol than you actually get out of it, then you have to distribute it with MORE foreign oil, which ends up magnifying the disparity even MORE while the pigs are starving.

So we actually use MORE foreign oil to make and distribute something that contains LESS energy while we divert grain away from the traditional source, driving food prices up.

Again, false information. FACT--1 gallon of oil (imported or not) is used in the production of 6 gallons of ethanol production. The rest of the energy expended is natural gas, or coal, or whatever in the refining.

From Argonne National Laboratory (uhh, good place to believe...): http://www.chicagocleancities.org/PDFs/ ... ummary.pdf

Still, corn ethanol is energy-positive due to the energy gained from the sun. It gives 1.3 units for each unit expended. Gasoline is energy-negative. Cellulosic ethanol will provide even much more energy per unit expended. Corn ethanol is the pathway to get the fuel and vehicles out, increase the infrastructure, and get consumers buying until the cellosic ethanol technology is cheaper and mass volumes come online.

[willwren]

Sacramento, I got my information from the US Department of Energy's website.

I'll stick with that for the time being.

[SacramentoE85]

Sacramento, I got my information from the US Department of Energy's website.

I'll stick with that for the time being.

Link PLEASE!!! Pretty please!

[J Wikoff]

If I were to design an engine to run on mainstream fuel with max performance, E85. It's more and more available, and I can compress the heck out of it.

[willwren]

http://www.google.com

type in US DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY. Look up the fuel comparison tables.


You may also want to do a quick search on the percentage of fossil fuels used to generate our electricity which is used to produce Ethanol. This doesn't even factor in the distribution costs. Diesel is a fossil fuel, and the trucks that deliver Ethanol (due to the lack of proper infrastructure) use this fuel to deliver the E85 to extremely remote locations in my State. The effieciency of the entire operation sucks. FFV's are produced simply because the EPA allows 'breaks' for the manufacturers if they produce a certain number of them. They are exempt from EPA mileage requirements because they are an 'alternative' fuel source.

This is simply to 'buy time'. Sacramento, I don't expect you to dig into the opposing view. Passionate pushers don't do that. They don't WANT to know the reality. Wikoff is an Engineer, you are savvy in Economics. But neither of you combined have the 'big picture'. This has been debated in the past, but if you'd really like to know the interest level in E85, try doing a search on it (top title bar, far right side).


Then you can go on and ask yourself why such a 'green' State like Oregon still only has FOUR E85 stations? Even though FFV's are being sold in the State so the manufacturers can get a break on EPA standards for their other vehicles.

[SacramentoE85]

http://www.google.com

type in US DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY. Look up the fuel comparison tables.

Not acceptable. Please provide the direct link, pretty please with a cherry on top.

[willwren]

I just did. You are welcome to search for it. I don't expect such an advocate of the pro-E85 to even be able to find it, simply for lack of wanting to see it. I'm not being rude, so don't take this the wrong way. I found the information last night in less than 5 minutes of searching. Ethanol is only 65% efficient, and the cost to produce it (in fossil fuels) is ridiculous compared to what you get. You have to ALSO look at our overall electricity production and what fuels are used to produce it. In other words, dig below the surface. I'd rather you find it on your own. It'll make more of an impact.

Every human on this planet has the same basic desire to be passionate about SOMEthing, and a desire to NOT see it knocked down a couple notches, and certainly not disproven. If you want to run E85, run it.




And for the record, I LIKE Bacon, and the current price SUCKS.

[SacramentoE85]

I just did.

No, you did not.

[willwren]

I told you HOW to find it and what to search for, and what to compare it to. I found it EASILY. You can too.