Mods to Run E85?

[SacramentoE85]

--Please do not "flame" back to this post; just interested in some intellectual discussions...--

Hello all,

Supercharged engines (SSE) are considered best for using the superior E85 fuel for enormous performance gains, when modifications have been made for air and fuel flow, compression ratio, timing, spark plugs, etc.

Are any of you in the process of making your cars "flex fuel" to run on E85, particularly in the Midwest where it is much more available? I know, the ethanol "supposedly" is not meant for cars other than those specified as FFV, but in the 1990's the manufacturers started making all cars ethanol-resistant. Now they change out very few components (mostly the ECU, fuel tank, and fuel lines (though many models may use the same tanks and lines regardless of FFV or not)) to enable running E85. Models made for E85 are nearly identical to those made for gasoline.

Some links of interest before you respond:

http://e85vehicles.com/converting-e85.htm

http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.ph ... ic=32501.0

http://www.pearsonfuels.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=106

http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/bse/442-884/442-884.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPqTwoEO ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY4YiEBn ... re=related

Please post back when you have checked all this out.

Regards,
SacramentoE85

[lowrider0308]

-How come one of the links you provide, has you as an admin, with only 5 people with posts? The board has 12,000 inactive accounts with 0 posts, that have typical spam profiles?

-Also, how about some solid proof that a Bonneville can be converted? You say that the L67 is the best for ethanol, but where is your proof?

I have an E85 ready truck from the factory, and it is a known fact that you get less MPG's on E85 than on pump gas, and not as much power. The factory says no towing while on ethanol.

This is really fishy to me!

[J Wikoff]

I can personally vouch for SacramentoE85. I guarantee he's not a spammer.

I haven't heard of anyone converting a Bonneville yet. The increased octane of E85 would be great in any forced induction engine tuned for it with all the proper upgraded component materials. Which parts of a Bonneville fuel system would need upgraded...? I don't know.

One problem with flex-fuel vehicles, creating lower power, is that they are primarily configured to run on gas. To fully take advantage of the E85, you'd need higher compression and/or forced induction.

[lowrider0308]

10-4. That forum just seemed kind of weird. Not good to link to a place with 12,000 members with 0 posts and profiles that look like spam.

[SacramentoE85]

Lowrider--I have "Administrator" access to that Pearson website, but am not involved with the business or website, just an enthusiast that offered to help. I just try to keep the spammers out. Right now all new members have to be manually accepted because (as you can see @ 12,000) there are thousands of spammers that try to post crap all over it. Sometimes I wonder if the Big Oil companies have hired a third party to spam the site.

I don't have an example of a supercharged Bonneville being changed over, just checking to see if anyone here is. However, nearly any vehicle (especially '90's on) can be converted over. It's been done in Brazil for many years. GM sells lots of cars in Brazil. If I find an example I will post it.

I have an E85 ready FFV Tahoe from the factory. I get 15% lower fuel economy on E85 than gasoline, because all engines are tuned to gasoline regardless if FFV or not. That's what enables the "flex." It's good, because where I moved to there is not any E85 for now, until a few weeks from now when several E85 pumps are planned to open. I have hundreds of receipts that I kept track of fuel economy that show the difference. I kept copies of them, because the originals I submitted to the State of Illinois for the $450 fuel rebate I got twice while I lived there.

If the cost of E85 is around 15% lower than the price of gasoline, then you are ahead economically to use E85. Also, in Illinois if you get the $450 fuel rebate back, that drops the price of E85 considerably. Though, is economics the only reason to use E85? How about cleaner fuel and increased performance? How about that gasoline actually costs the U.S. over $10 per gallon because we import so much and have to have the military in the Middle East (cost of Iraq war is $Billions per day)? How about supporting the domestic rural economy, where much of the corn is grown and ethanol is brewed? Don't forget--when ethanol is made the livestock feed is still available to our food supply, because 1/3 of the bushel is a high-protein livestock feed (DDGS) that is then fed to cows, pigs, poultry, etc. Also, if you are running only 91 premium, that cost is much higher, making 15% lower E85 much easier to find.

I will have to check into the "towing" thing. E85 provides more power, so that seems opposite of what would be expected.

Thank you for the excellent questions!

[SacramentoE85]

The Pearson Fuels website is located in California, where almost no one knows of E85 (look at the # of E85 pumps in the Midwest compared to the West Coast). Therefore, there are very few people who would even know to look for this website. That will change with time, as there are 20 or more E85 pumps to open in California in the next 4-6 months. http://www.e85refueling.com/locations.p ... fe88e9879b

In California, the California Air Resources Board controls emissions, much like the EPA. Now that E85 is catching on in other places, they are finally working on E85 here. Though, you can't just install a pump here (it is illegal). CARB has to study what you are doing and allow a research grant, and then there are many permits and zoning, etc. California is just another world when trying to put in an E85 pump, compared to the Midwest.

So, that's why so few registered users on the Pearson site, for now. It will increase. If you have any suggestions to allow open access and yet keep the spammers out, I am game. It is frustrating and I can't check all the time, so some real users subscribe then I don't get back to them for days or a week, and then I don't see them post.

Please don't depend on just the Pearsons site, though, check out all the others!!

FYI,
SacramentoE85

[SacramentoE85]

I found one link with "Mylittleblackbird" from Muscatine, IA converting his/her Bonneville to run on E85.

Though, this was posted in 2005. Does anyone know of he/she is still posting and if we could get an update if the conversion was completed?

FYI,
SacramentoE85

[SacramentoE85]

Here is another link, where a newer Bonneville in MN has been converted using a "Full Flex" system to run on E85. Click the link, then use the "Edit-->Find" for Bonneville, and it will get you to his post.

http://fuelflexinternational.com/pages/comments1.htm

There's also a converted GTP Turbo on that page!

FYI,
SacramentoE85

[PRD2BDF]

Usually, it is preferred that one edits his post instead of replying to himself. That'll help us.

[willwren]

Correct. Please edit your previous post if nobody has replied, rather than replying to yourself.

I personally have no interest in switching to a fuel that has less power. Particularly a fuel that costs more in petroleum fuels and products to distribute it than it saves in the end. And even more in particular for a fuel that we cannot support without impacting the price of food. I'll look for other alternatives.

Oregon recently switched to a 10% Ethanol blend this year, and the results were disappointing for every car that attended WCBF in comparison to pure petroleum fuel. Both my cars and those of all my friends have lost fuel mileage with this subtle change.

Less mileage, less power, and limited availability coupled with negative impacts on food prices and a distribution network that relies on traditionally-fueled vehicles.

No positives that I can see.

[harofreak00]

Here is another link, where a newer Bonneville in MN has been converted using a "Full Flex" system to run on E85. Click the link, then use the "Edit-->Find" for Bonneville, and it will get you to his post.

I gotta be a little suspicious about that... he talks about his 3.8L Bonneville, but the one pictured is a GXP which is a 4.6L V8

[radomirthegreat]

Mylittleblackbird still posts here and also at Bonneville Pro (NE Bonneville Club in the links above). He mentioned converting his car a while back, but no progress on that has been made.

From what I know, you just have to change over to a more capable fuel pump, larger injectors, and make sure that nothing that has fuel going through it will be eaten away. You need to change the computer to adjust timing, but it's really hard to do and not worthwhile because of lower gas mileage, lower performance, and the cost of E85 plus the conversion, not to mention the labor, tuning, and accounting for any problems that arise. If you can make an engine that runs on higher compression to make up for the power loss from E85, just put in gas to get an even more powerful engine.

I don't really have too much of a problem with E85, but it's just that I don't want the US to change entirely to a new fuel that solves very little overall for the huge cost and absolutely no advantage except that fuel importing won't be necessary. Maybe it'll take replacing the internal combustion engine to get rid of gasoline and diesel.

[J Wikoff]

If you can make an engine that runs on higher compression to make up for the power loss from E85, just put in gas to get an even more powerful engine.

Not true. Given E85's octane of 105, the concessions you'd have to make to run 93 gasoline would reduce your power quite a bit.

[radomirthegreat]

Are we talking about E-85 cars, cars capable of either fuel, or does it not matter? I may just be totally confused.

[J Wikoff]

I'm talking about a car primarily setup to run E85.

[clm2112]

Did some looking into this a few months ago. I wanted to dig up notes on how to run a carb motor on alcohol. E85 solves a few issues over 100% alcohol (namely cold start issues, having enough gasoline in the mix to light it in a cold engine.)

The basic issues for converting a vehicle:

Can't have steel fuel lines in the system, they will rust out quickly. For a high pressure fuel system, that leaves Stainless Steel tubing as the only suitable fuel line material. Fuel tank is an issue as well. Needs to be cleaned out and either coated or a rubber bladder installed to keep the rust down inside the tank.

All the O-rings in the system have to be compatible with alcohol. Most of the synthetic rubber O-rings and hoses used in the car are not compatible with a fuel that is mostly alcohol. Use it for a while and the hoses will eventually develope leaks.

The fuel pump also has to be capable of running submerged in alcohol. The stock pump would need to be either replaced or removed in favor of a frame mounted pump that will not rust out with alcohol.

Fuel consumption: Alcohol has a higher octane rating, but fuel consumption will go up by 20 to 30%. A gallon of gas has more energy stored in it. There's no way around that. The fuel injectors need to deliver more fuel, period.

Ignition: Stock plugs work just fine, but the ignition advance needs to be higher. The flame front speed is slower, so the spark has to fire sooner in order to extract the most energy out of the fuel.

Most of the research I dug up is about 20 years old (as are most of my notes...we're going back to the last "Energy Crisis") and was intended for use on a carburated motor. Bigger jets, accelerator pumps, and changes to the distributor accomplished most of the corrections in the fuel and spark. Naturally, a fuel injected car like the 3800 will need this all done via the calibrator prom. It's possible, but will take some time and you may come up short in a few areas..like not having enough range in the timing to get the most out of the alcohol fuel. I don't know how the O2 sensor will respond to using an alcohol based fuel..I'm guessing it will be OK, as it is on CNG conversions.

Just a basic WAG on the cost is about $1500 to make the car run well on E85. If it was the only fuel around, then maybe it would be worth it. So long as gasoline is available, it's still your best choice of fuel.

[SacramentoE85]

Thank you all for your posts; I hope you won't mind that I Reply in a new box this time. Sorry I got excited--I will try to consolidate by "editing" in the future, but please consider if you do this every time yourself.

I am not surprised to say the least by the regurgitation of negativity towards E85, that the mainstream media reports. I have been completely aghast at what not only Time and Newsweek print (do you believe everything these folks print?) but also Consumer Reports and Popular Mechanics. Methinks that they are doing the same thing; regurgitating negativity based on out-dated data and downright falsehoods. The FFV Tahoe that CR used in their 2006 study was later found to have a faulty ECU, but I have yet to see them correct the story and run tests again.

Yet, please look again at those links above and really read into this superior E85 fuel. The Indy Racing League is using E100, and others are considering it. Local race drivers are also switching over to E85. They simply see and feel the facts and results with their own eyes, instead of agreeing with everything they read. If you don't it's no skin off my back; and many others will make the change over whether you do or not. Perhaps in 3 or 4 years you will change your mind.

If for nothing else, please think about one thing... Continuing to import expensive petroleum, or using a domestic renewable fuel. U.S. soldiers being shot at by Iraqis and Afghanis that are getting their weapons from oil money... Right now you could buy E85 instead. Since we still produce more than 15% of our own petroleum, you can consider yourself free from the oil sheik and terrorists.

I will post more later.

Thanks,
SacramentoE85

[willwren]

SacratomatoE85, please don't insult us by assuming we've been swayed by regurgitated press.

We're intelligent human beings that are VERY car savvy and know how to investigate ideas and form our own conclusions. Please also feel free to have your own opinion, while we retain ours. You are under no obligation to try to force your idea on us, nor are we on you.

You run E85. We'll run gas. Thanks.

(The IRL runs it for totally different reasons that have no bearing whatosever on this topic or your use of it on the street, so please don't use that as a 'selling' point. If you were a race fan, you'd know why)

I have no wish to read a list of links provided by such an obviously PRO-E85 person. I'd rather find my own information that isn't swayed and biased.

[radomirthegreat]

When people reply to your post, you can easily reply in a new box. Also, if your thread is getting old, you can post an update in a new box regardless of who the last poster is. That will "bump" your thread to the top of the thread list.

I don't believe anything those guys print. Their information is like listening to the result of a telephone game. I'd much rather read original info than find stuff in magazines. Anything that comes out in a magazine today was written three to four months ago.

[SacramentoE85]

We're intelligent human beings that are VERY car savvy and know how to investigate ideas and form our own conclusions. Please also feel free to have your own opinion, while we retain ours. You are under no obligation to try to force your idea on us, nor are we on you.

Hey, there's no forcing "my" idea here. I simply asked in my first post if anyone was trying to do an E85 conversion and if we could have an intelligent discussion. Instead I was returned messages that sounds much like the faulty press, but with no links to studies to back them up. Why would anyone just take your or my word for it, if they can't at least review the background data to support the opinions made?

Please post your studies of actual road-use of E85 in a converted conventional gasoline vehicle. Please view the links in the first post above and provide links in opposition.

Thank you,
SacramentoE85