Engine Hot A/C disabled warning, high temp on gauge (update)

[DbqJoe]

Yesterday morning I dropped my car off for an oil change and tire rotation. Picked it up and on the work sheet the mechanic listed a bunch of stuff that they wanted to fix. Apparently the head gasket needs to be replaced (again), and the LIM is leaking coolant (again). They quoted $1k to do all the work (there was other stuff written but I cant read the *dang* thing, the writing is too weird).

Anyway I picked up someone from work. Stopped at a gas station because they wanted to get something, so I was waiting with the engine on. All the sudden I got a warning on the DIC saying "Engine Hot A/C Disabled". Looked at the temp gauge and it was nearly at the red. I shut off the engine for a minute or to. Turned the key over to see the gauge and it slowly went down. She came back, we took off down the highway where the temp would move between 240-250 or so. Normally even in the hottest of days it stays in the middle at 200, but its only 63f outside today.

I tried coasting as much as I could, but the temp would go up actually. Going up hill and giving it some the temp would move down. Stopped at a red light and it nearly touched red again, this time the DIC was tell me to CHECK GAUGES. Thankfully the light went green and I gave it some revs and the warning went away and was able to make it home safely.

I didnt notice any smell of coolant burning or anything. The last time the UIM and LIM were leaking there was a a decent amount of smoke coming through the hood, BUT I never got any temp warnings when that happened. I didnt see any blockage in the grill and saw no fluid leaks in the engine bay that I could tell.

Anyway it got me worried. I dont have the tools or experience to fix any of this stuff myself, so Im not pleased about dropping another $1k for them to replace all this crap. I got the LIM/UIM and gaskets replaced 2 years ago or so. Why would it fail so soon? I dont drive this car that much either. Maybe 100 miles on average per week.

How long should gaskets/manifold replacements last? And is the $1k they quoted me reasonable or not?

[jedwards83]

Just a helpful hint, don't ever drive the car with the coolant temperature in or near the red. If it's telling you to check the gauges, it's too hot. I know it sucks to be stranded, but a $50 tow is a lot cheaper than a replacement engine.

You say the head gasket needs replaced, again? Was it ever replaced? That doesn't sound right. The LIM gasket should have been replaced, but it should last longer than 2 years if the correct, updated part was used. Your also mention the last time UIM/LIM was leaking, but your car doesn't have an UIM so that's a non-issue.

If I had to guess the damage is already done and you're looking at a very expensive repair. Sounds like the LIM gasket has failed twice now, and gone undetected until symptoms start showing-- Often times that's too late. Don't let the shop sell you a $1k head gasket replacement, because you will likely redo the upper end, only to have the lower end fail in short order.

If you know the LIM gaskets are shot, start there. Used the aluminum framed GM part, or Felpro. Don't do anything with the head gaskets unless you have hard evidence, a compression test or leakdown test to prove it. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have the car looked at by a second mechanic to get another opinion.

[00Beast]

I would take it somewhere else and get an estimate. I doubt your head gaskets needed replacement, but when you get it really hot like you did, they might now...

[DbqJoe]

He wrote that the Lower intake is leaking, valve covers is leaking, fluid on power steering pump clean and check. Then "tenbenr" elbow leaking, cant read that one at all. I was wrong on the head gasket. That was replaced a few years ago so I misread the paper. As for the leak that happened before, it was actually last summer not 2 years ago. It was stupidly hot last year and I remember seeing (and smelling) smoke come throughout the hood and had them take care of it. Told them to fix it, and the mechanic said he flushed the entire system and worked on the LIM, as well as replacing the thermostat with a 180f one. I'll try to find the worksheet for that one to clarify. Either way the LIM and coolant system was definitely worked on last summer, so Im puzzled as to why the lower intake is leaking already. Dont know what valve cover leak means.

What angers me as that all I wanted was an oil change and tire rotation. The car was working fine. No temp warnings ever since I've had this car (even when I had the major leak). Literally the next day after taking my car from them all this BS started. So do I have to get the car towed from my house to the shop or what?


This is what they want to do:


I'll see about going to another mechanic, but the reason I goto the one I usually goto is that I can pay off the work in small installments as I have a credit card with them. I dont know how much longer I can put up with this car. My 1990 Bonneville was as solid as a rock, this SSEi has been nothing but trouble from day 1. Im seriously considering just going to a dealer or something, trade it in for whatever i can get and buy an older simpler car like I used to have. This one is killing me financially.

[bc21]

I would have to agree with Jedward definitely get a 2nd opinion. The quote sheet you have seems absolutely crazy. The first thing i would do is go on to autozone/advanced auto parts website and compare prices for all of the parts that they have listed to see how much of a mark up there is on parts. the one thing that blew my mind is that they are charging you $83 to change the thermostat. what doesn't seem right is that they would take off the thermostat housing and remove the thermostat anyway when they are changing the LIM. The gasket kit for everything should be under $100 or at least close to it. It sounds like they are trying to rob you.

You mentioned that all this work was done last summer I would try to find out idf there was some type of warranty, especially if you only put about 100 miles a week 5200/ per year on the car.

[jedwards83]

To be honest, what they intend to do is what is probably needed. What I'd be worried about is the potential damage done by a) driving the car with a bad, leaking intake manifold gasket and b) overheating it. Luckily the engine is an iron block / iron head design so overheating isn't as bad as it would be on some engines until it gets really bad-- You might get lucky there.

Check underneath the oil cap for white sludge, see if the coolant has contaminated the oil or ask the shop. That's where things get messy, because irreversible damage happens very quickly when this happens, and sometimes it not apparent until after you dump a lot of money into the car on repairs.

Yes, the shop is gouging you for repairs, but this is pretty typical especially if this is a chain. If you have the money, an independent mechanic is your best bet, especially on these cars which are dime-a-dozen. I question why they are replacing the thermostat (and charging $78 for labor!!) if it was done last year. It does not take an hour to replace the thermostat, but this might be a place that has an hour minimum for labor. On an older car, very likely the valve cover gaskets need replaced; they must have noticed oil leaking. Chains are bad news, they're good for tire rotations, oil changes, alignments and not much else. Those 22 year old high school dropouts are more interested in getting loaded at the local bar after work than they are doing quality work fixing your car.

These are good cars, but are more suited for people who can tackle some problems themselves, because there are a lot of common problems that will nickel and dime you if you rely on a mechanic for everything. That said you still have the face the reality that this is a 12 year old car. You can't expect not to have problems, at that age, import or domestic, you can expect them. Simply put, 12 year old cars are a bad choice for anyone not mechanically inclined that wants to just turn the key and go.

[DbqJoe]

Searched for the parts via the part numbers, and found all 3 on Amazon for way less than what is listed. I think they get most of their stuff from AAP as its across the street from them and I see the AAP van from time to time in front of the shop. Not taking into consideration the shipping costs, the parts on Amazon come out to $182.56, and the shop is quoting me $387.84! The manifold set I found for $130, thermostat for $9 etc.

I'm going to print out prices and bring it to them. Cant wait to see what they have to say. The gaskets/manifold stuff they worked on last summer should definitely be under warranty so I'll be sure to bring that up.


"what doesn't seem right is that they would take off the thermostat housing and remove the thermostat anyway when they are changing the LIM"

What does that exactly mean? Im a noob to this stuff so I'd like to bring this up when I go in tomorrow. So the thermostat has to be changed no matter what when changing LIM? If so shouldnt that be a part of the labor cost for the LIM?

Are the labor costs reasonable at least? Other than the thermostat charge, the labor everything else?

[jedwards83]

"what doesn't seem right is that they would take off the thermostat housing and remove the thermostat anyway when they are changing the LIM"

What does that exactly mean? Im a noob to this stuff so I'd like to bring this up when I go in tomorrow. So the thermostat has to be changed no matter what when changing LIM? If so shouldnt that be a part of the labor cost for the LIM?

Are the labor costs reasonable at least? Other than the thermostat charge, the labor everything else?

You got it, to change the LIM gasket, they're removing the thermostat housing anyways. It takes 5 seconds to plop in a new thermostat when they're putting it back together. To charge you extra for the labor is dishonest, most places will include that in the LIM labor. Still not sure why they're putting a new thermostat in anyways if it was just replaced last year. I suppose it's not a bad idea, it's cheap insurance, but over $30 for a thermostat is robbery of the worst kind.

Labor costs? Aside from the thermostat, not terrible, but not cheap either. $202.80 seems kinda outlandish to replace a valve cover gasket, but if you live in an urban area with expensive labor costs, I suppose it could be justified.

[LeSabre in Buffalo]

Check the coolant level in the radiator. It might be as simple as a flaky/unplugged coolant temperature sensor. Seems kind of suspicious that the car starts having cooling system problems at the same time they're recommending $1200 of cooling system work...

[bc21]

Lesaberinbuffalo makes a good point if this was my car I would check the fluid level in the radiator to see if it was full and would look in the oil cap to see if the oil looks like chocolate milk or normal. If it looks like chocolate milk then water is mixing in to the oil and you have a big problem.

If you are not very handy with cars then you should find an older local mechanic that would take more pride in their work. Most chains usually base their employees pay on commission of some sort, so the more services they can push on you the more $ they make.

Good luck

[DbqJoe]

Had a quick look before and didnt see anything out of the ordinary. When I was driving it like I listed in my OP, how come the temp would go down when on throttle, and rise during idle? Fan not working or something? I dont notice any blockage in the grill.

[LeSabre in Buffalo]

Airflow moving over the radiator would make the temperature go down. It could be a cooling fan bit the dust, or the water pump went out.

I wonder if this isn't a symptom of a battery or alternator issue. The gauges might be thrown off by low voltage when the engine is idling, but more revs = more voltage, so the gauge goes back to normal. And, low voltage can cause some weird things to happen with the PCM. Get the battery and alternator tested, too. An AutoZone or Advance can do a charging system analysis for free. Post the slip when you get it.

[DbqJoe]

Yeah its weird. I mean if the engine was near the red temp wise, wouldnt there be some smoke or strong burning smell, or stupidly hot to touch the hood? When I got back home and pulled into the garage I noticed no smells or wisps of smoke or anything. Doesn't mean that it wasn't really about to overheat of course.

As for the water pump that was replaced a few years ago. Pulley snapped off when I was driving up to my house from the side street when all the sudden I felt a snap and steering became really stiff. Was able to make the 50ft to my driveway, and saw that the pulley fell on one of the beams.

I'll be sure to test the battery/alternator.

[DbqJoe]

Just got back from AAP. Did a battery/alternator test. Everything checked out fine. Drove around the block a few times. The temp reached 200 and stayed there for a minute or 2, then on my way back home it started to climb up again. Didnt go near red but was on its way. While idling in the driveway I checked to see if the fans were spinning and they were. The guy at AAP suggested perhaps when they did the oil change they accidently broke or disconnected the cooling temp sensor and perhaps thats why Im getting hot temp readings. Make sense? Is that sensor located anywhere near enough to be broken or disconnected while performing an oil change?

[00Beast]

Not really. It's under the thermostat, where the upper radiator hose goes into the engine on the right side as you're looking at it from the front bumper.

[jedwards83]

Did you check the condition of the coolant and oil? That should be the first thing you do. I doubt anything is wrong with the coolant temp sensor. Usually they either work or they don't work, and if it does malfunction the PCM will freak out and spit out a code. This is one of the main sensors for calculating injector pulse width, if something is wrong with it, it's usually quick to make it's failure known either by some noticeable driveability issues or an SES light.

[DbqJoe]

Well I dont know what Im supposed to be looking for. The oil seems fine, no sludge or crap that I can see. Coolant is low but they did note that on the worksheet and I do need a coolant flush. Its just the car had no overheating symptoms before I took it in, and a day later the needle flirts with red. Could the coolant leak out that quickly according to the leaky valve/lim gaskets?

Oh well I'll find out by friday when I take it in. I'll let em do the coolant flush, but if they refuse to be reasonable on the repairs I'll take it to another shop. Just hard finding who is good in my town. Not much reviews to go by on Angies list and the such.

[Jrs3800]

Sounds like the radiator is plugged or the water pump may be losing its pump vanes/fingers and may not be able to pump the coolant around... Hard to say tho... When was the last time the water pump was replaced? And is the car full on coolant?

[leatherneck]

WOW... those prices on the parts is close to double of what I see them for around here...

I bought a set of Valve cover gaskets (GM Parts) for a 1/3 of what they want to charge and I replaced them myself...

Coolant Elbows same thing, bought both for less than $10 and installed myself... All of which has to be taken off to get to the rear valve cover gasket...

$89 to replace a thermostat ? I am sure they are factoring in labor to drain the coolant... which has to be done for the elbows and the LIM....

It takes 5 min to replace the Stat if its already drained.... I am in the wrong business lol...

[DbqJoe]

Took the car in yesterday morning. Told the woman at the counter (the manager) about what was up. Also showed her printouts of the parts in question that I found on rockauto for almost a 3rd of the price and asked her what the deal was. She said that those were the prices the shop are given for parts, and that they need to make a bit of profit on top. I understand adding a bit on top for profit but $18 for a thermostat was pretty darn steep. But she did take the printouts I made and said she'd see if she can price match and work out a fair deal so that was nice to hear.

Anyway told her about the overheating warnings etc. She said she'd do a pressure test and other checks to see what was up. I flirted with her a tad (shes a looker, nice too), muttered about missing my old 90 Bonnville and how reliable it was. She told me she used to have a Grand Am and had similar issues with lower intake leaks etc. She asked if I had the HUD and I said yes. We both laughed how much we love the HUD (its true, I hate driving a car without one). Anyway left the car and went home.

I called up to see what was going on, and she said they did a bunch of tests including the pressure test, and it came out fine. They did a coolant flush, replaced the thermostat and drove it around a few times to see if it overheated. Nope. Apparently the LIM isnt leaking, but it was "damp". When I went back to the shop to pick up the car, the manager was out so I talked to another person and he said most likely there was an air bubble due to the low coolant and thats why the temps started to climb. After replacing the thermostat and coolant they ran the car for a while and it ran great.

Best of all, NO CHARGE! Thats right, for some reason there was no charge at all. 0.0 dollars. Dont know why as the manager I talked to when I dropped of the car was gone and the guy I spoke to later that day didnt know why. Seemed surprised, but hey I'll take it.

Drove the car around yesterday and today and no issues at all. The temp stays just a half tick under 200 as it should.