SERIES 1

Talk about modifications, or anything else associated with performance enhancements. Have a new idea for performance/reliability? Post it here. No idea is stupid! (please use Detailing and Appearance for cosmetic ideas)
User avatar
willwren
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 65489
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Contact:

Re: SERIES 1

Post by willwren »

Running the smaller pulley in winter is bad for the reasons stated as well as the fact that winter blend gas in most areas is worse for KR. Run it in the summer, and check KR on the hottest most humid day you can. If you have 1° or more through a WOT run from a stop, you need to fix the problem or pulley back up.

2.85 to 2.55 is generally about 20-25hp and about 1.5ft/lbs of torque for every 1hp gained. That's where the true problem lies, especially with the Series 1. It's the torque that kills the transmission, and you can't add a single horsepower without adding 1.5 pounds of torque each time. Call it 'torque stack' if you like. The only way to TRULY beat this is by going with a cam, and it's just not worth it on a car this old.

My first trans on the ZiLLA failed early in the Mod process, right at about 100k or so. The car was in great shape, I was second owner (first owner deceased retired man, I bought from his widow), it sat in storage for 5 years of it's life. When it failed, I had the original Gen2 supercharger on the car (Ported mildly), Gen2 throttle body, 2.2" pulley (correct 1-step down for the Gen2 setup), High-flow cat and intake. Not much more. That was prior to all my other work. I had the trans built to hold the planned total teardown and rebuild, including the Gen3 swap, ported heads, rockers, etc.

The SLEeper's trans failed at 120k in stock form. I was also the second owner (elderly couple were the original) I had not modified the SC yet, and only had a K&N drop-in filter in the stock airbox. I had played with a 2.5" pulley, but it never ran much on the car until I could get the right cable for my scanner. Please bear in mind that the SLEeper is going to be 'lighter' on the diff and trans abuse, as the car weighs in 300-500 pounds lighter than your SSEi or my own.

Keep in mind I'm also on my THIRD differential now on the ZiLLA (LSD this time, hoping it holds), the first one failed when the trans did, the second one soon after adding all the second wave of go fast mods (porting, rockers, etc).

You're in the zone. If you pulley down this spring, watch for KR on the hottest most humid day possible. Never burnout in a TURN. This is the quickest path to Differential failure. Frankly, the way you drive will be everything. Enjoy the extra power AFTER you get the car moving off the line. You just have to come to terms with the fact that your car is old, and really too old to be expecting any added power not to cost you down the line. You drive an older (most likely) because you can't afford a newer one. You'd be better off upgrading to a Series 2 with fewer miles than modding your current car.
Image
Click here for mod list for both cars
93 SSEi, 95 SLE (supercharged) 97 Buick LeSabre Limited
PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers
NOT_aerosmith
SLE Member
SLE Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:28 am
Year and Trim: 1994 SSEi
Location: united states

Re: SERIES 1

Post by NOT_aerosmith »

willwren wrote:Running the smaller pulley in winter is bad for the reasons stated as well as the fact that winter blend gas in most areas is worse for KR. Run it in the summer, and check KR on the hottest most humid day you can. If you have 1° or more through a WOT run from a stop, you need to fix the problem or pulley back up.

2.85 to 2.55 is generally about 20-25hp and about 1.5ft/lbs of torque for every 1hp gained. That's where the true problem lies, especially with the Series 1. It's the torque that kills the transmission, and you can't add a single horsepower without adding 1.5 pounds of torque each time. Call it 'torque stack' if you like. The only way to TRULY beat this is by going with a cam, and it's just not worth it on a car this old.

My first trans on the ZiLLA failed early in the Mod process, right at about 100k or so. The car was in great shape, I was second owner (first owner deceased retired man, I bought from his widow), it sat in storage for 5 years of it's life. When it failed, I had the original Gen2 supercharger on the car (Ported mildly), Gen2 throttle body, 2.2" pulley (correct 1-step down for the Gen2 setup), High-flow cat and intake. Not much more. That was prior to all my other work. I had the trans built to hold the planned total teardown and rebuild, including the Gen3 swap, ported heads, rockers, etc.

The SLEeper's trans failed at 120k in stock form. I was also the second owner (elderly couple were the original) I had not modified the SC yet, and only had a K&N drop-in filter in the stock airbox. I had played with a 2.5" pulley, but it never ran much on the car until I could get the right cable for my scanner. Please bear in mind that the SLEeper is going to be 'lighter' on the diff and trans abuse, as the car weighs in 300-500 pounds lighter than your SSEi or my own.

Keep in mind I'm also on my THIRD differential now on the ZiLLA (LSD this time, hoping it holds), the first one failed when the trans did, the second one soon after adding all the second wave of go fast mods (porting, rockers, etc).

You're in the zone. If you pulley down this spring, watch for KR on the hottest most humid day possible. Never burnout in a TURN. This is the quickest path to Differential failure. Frankly, the way you drive will be everything. Enjoy the extra power AFTER you get the car moving off the line. You just have to come to terms with the fact that your car is old, and really too old to be expecting any added power not to cost you down the line. You drive an older (most likely) because you can't afford a newer one. You'd be better off upgrading to a Series 2 with fewer miles than modding your current car.
If I add the 1.8 rockers, will they help kill some of the "torque stack" ?
Image
00Beast
Retired Site Developer
Retired Site Developer
Posts: 20960
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:30 pm
Year and Trim: '17 Silverado 1500
Location: MN/IA
Contact:

Re: SERIES 1

Post by 00Beast »

No, they'll increase it. They just increase lift. A cam changes the valve timing, which changes the torque curve.
Last edited by 00Beast on Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bye Bye:
Image
RIP sandrock
Sirius wrote:Think about it. You’re tooling down the road in your Prius, knowing full-well that this thing being green is as big a sham as federally mandated ethanol-enriched gas, Russia pulling out of Ukraine, and Obamacare.
User avatar
willwren
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 65489
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Contact:

Re: SERIES 1

Post by willwren »

If you plan on rockers, you're going to kill that car far sooner. That's another 20hp on an L67. But you can't do that without doing something with your exhaust first (you're in a far more dangerous climate for KR than I am, and KR will kill your motor along with the increased torque killing your trans), and you better already have an FWI. So you're going to spend more money to kill your car sooner. Sounds like a recipe for success to me. You have $2500-$3000 set aside for another trans? And you're sure the rest of the car will last long enough to be worth putting a new trans in it?

Your car is almost 17 years old on the original transmission. Have you even really READ my Techinfo article on modding the Series 1, or did you just skim it?

If this was 1998, I'd be telling you a different story, but the last time I checked, it's almost 2012.
Last edited by willwren on Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Click here for mod list for both cars
93 SSEi, 95 SLE (supercharged) 97 Buick LeSabre Limited
PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers
NOT_aerosmith
SLE Member
SLE Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:28 am
Year and Trim: 1994 SSEi
Location: united states

Re: SERIES 1

Post by NOT_aerosmith »

willwren wrote:If you plan on rockers, you're going to kill that car far sooner. That's another 20hp on an L67. But you can't do that without doing something with your exhaust first (you're in a far more dangerous climate for KR than I am, and KR will kill your motor along with the increased torque killing your trans), and you better already have an FWI. So you're going to spend more money to kill your car sooner. Sounds like a recipe for success to me. You have $2500-$3000 set aside for another trans? And you're sure the rest of the car will last long enough to be worth putting a new trans in it?

Your car is almost 17 years old on the original transmission. Have you even really READ my Techinfo article on modding the Series 1, or did you just skim it?

If this was 1998, I'd be telling you a different story, but the last time I checked, it's almost 2012.
I read the entire tech info article.
I am not going to put rockers on it, I was just curious as to whether or not they help or hurt the "torque stack" problem.
Do the series 2 camshafts fit the series 1? If I keep the transmission extra cool by wiring a manual switch for the fans, do you think that will help it?
Last edited by NOT_aerosmith on Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
BonneMe
Certified Bonneville Nut
Certified Bonneville Nut
Posts: 11879
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 10:45 am
Year and Trim: 2001 BMW 330i
ZSP Sport Pack
Moonroof
Location: Eagan, MN

Re: SERIES 1

Post by BonneMe »

NOT_aerosmith wrote:
willwren wrote:If you plan on rockers, you're going to kill that car far sooner. That's another 20hp on an L67. But you can't do that without doing something with your exhaust first (you're in a far more dangerous climate for KR than I am, and KR will kill your motor along with the increased torque killing your trans), and you better already have an FWI. So you're going to spend more money to kill your car sooner. Sounds like a recipe for success to me. You have $2500-$3000 set aside for another trans? And you're sure the rest of the car will last long enough to be worth putting a new trans in it?

Your car is almost 17 years old on the original transmission. Have you even really READ my Techinfo article on modding the Series 1, or did you just skim it?

If this was 1998, I'd be telling you a different story, but the last time I checked, it's almost 2012.
I am not going to put rockers on it, I was just curious as to whether or not they help or hurt the "torque stack" problem.
Do the series 2 camshafts fit the series 1? If I keep the transmission extra cool by wiring a manual switch for the fans, do you think that will help it?
The series 2 has differently spaced ports, and cams will not work.

Wiring up a switch on the high speed fan relay/ground works great, and doesn't set off any SES/CELs. I used mine frequently, and think it's a great addition for anyone doing performance driving, or who can get stuck idling in traffic, etc.
Jason Z - Exposed Autos
Image
2001 BMW 330i
- Titanium Silver - Sport Package - 3 Pedals - Koni Yellow/H&R Sport
2006 Volkswagen GTI - (gone) Tornado Red - DSG, Stage II~280hp/325tq
1993 Pontiac Bonneville - (gone) Purple Pearl H4U/SLE. Loud
User avatar
willwren
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 65489
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Contact:

Re: SERIES 1

Post by willwren »

Wiring a LOW-speed bypass switch WILL set a code, but as stated, the High-speed will not.
Image
Click here for mod list for both cars
93 SSEi, 95 SLE (supercharged) 97 Buick LeSabre Limited
PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers
User avatar
repinS
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7391
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:51 pm
Year and Trim: 09 G8 GT
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: SERIES 1

Post by repinS »

From what I have observed, the high speed fan bypass alone also won't be terribly effective at keeping trans temps low, although it's great at keeping your coolant fine all day long. You will want an auxiliary trans cooler if you don't have one already.
Image
Jerry /// Past: 95 SSEi (June 2010 COTM) -- 04 GXP (July 2011 COTM)
91 Honda Civic Wagon DX 2WD (fuelly) -- 208,000km -- 92hp -- Autocross Warrior
09 Lexus LS460 AWD -- 94,000km -- Daily Driver
09 White Hot G8 GT -- 155,000km (fuelly) -- LS3 Cam -- GM LS3 CNC Ported Heads -- Kooks 1 3/4" Long Tube Headers -- Solo Catback Midsection -- Hooker Maxflow Mufflers -- Pat G Tune -- Rotofab Intake -- Tein S-Tech Springs -- GXP FE3 Dampers -- BMR Subframe Cradle Inserts -- BMR Subframe Connectors -- Forgestar F14 Gold 18x9 +40 -- Michelin Pilot Super Sport 245/45/18 -- Maverick Man Carbon Fiber Spoiler
NOT_aerosmith
SLE Member
SLE Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:28 am
Year and Trim: 1994 SSEi
Location: united states

Re: SERIES 1

Post by NOT_aerosmith »

My car has the auxiliary cooler, a chamber inside the radiator for the trans., and a chamber for the engine oil.
In order to wire a bypass switch, do I need to disconnect/cut the PCM wire that energizes the high speed fan relay and then run a wire to the battery and then join the two wires with the switch ?
Last edited by NOT_aerosmith on Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
01bonneSC
Certified Bonneville Nut
Certified Bonneville Nut
Posts: 4938
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 5:18 pm
Year and Trim: 05 Chevy 'Hoe
1997 'maro (3.8L M5)
89 SkiDoo
Location: Sycamore, IL

Re: SERIES 1

Post by 01bonneSC »

A separate cooler he was talking about, besides the one in the radiator.
Image
00Beast wrote:Less off-topic than Lane's Heated Steering wheel, but yeah, back to the topic.
NOT_aerosmith
SLE Member
SLE Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:28 am
Year and Trim: 1994 SSEi
Location: united states

Re: SERIES 1

Post by NOT_aerosmith »

01bonneSC wrote:A separate cooler he was talking about, besides the one in the radiator.
Yeah, I have a separate core in front of the radiator + the chamber inside the radiator.
Image
User avatar
willwren
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 65489
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Contact:

Re: SERIES 1

Post by willwren »

All 92-95 SSEi's (or L67's) have the aux cooler (from the factory). It's rather small, plugs easily, and should be removed and replaced with a larger unit before ANY mods. Especially with your mileage. Put that as first on your list before even thinking about using that smaller pulley. Including a pan drop with a filter and gasket change for your trans.

The fan bypass is usually done by providing an alternate ground for the high speed RELAY under the hood, not by tapping into the PCM harness. The PCM normally controls (or provides this ground). You just tap into that wire at the relay, and run it through a switch TO GROUND in the cockpit, where you can turn it on at will. Turning your AC to AUTO will do the exact same thing, forcing both fans on high.
Image
Click here for mod list for both cars
93 SSEi, 95 SLE (supercharged) 97 Buick LeSabre Limited
PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers
NOT_aerosmith
SLE Member
SLE Member
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:28 am
Year and Trim: 1994 SSEi
Location: united states

Re: SERIES 1

Post by NOT_aerosmith »

Is wire #473 DK BLU the one that I need to ground ? (sorry about the poor quality picture)

Image
Image
1oldman
Certified Bonneville Nut
Certified Bonneville Nut
Posts: 3975
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 11:21 pm
Year and Trim: 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport
Location: Lone Star State

Re: SERIES 1

Post by 1oldman »

IIRC willwren posted a schematic in an answer to a question similar to your's. I did a search(s) and, as usual, can't find it. Hopefully you can find the post or willwren will post the link to the thread with the schematic. - BC
Last edited by 1oldman on Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
In Memory of Brad - 1/21/1977 .. 10/23/2013 ...... Aaron - 1977 .. 2017 .....
2017 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport ..... 1992 Bonneville SSE 1SB 170 HP L27 4T60E retired/sold to MattStrike ..... 2005 Bonneville SE 1SC 205 HP L36 4T65E - retired/salvage yard ..... PBCF user 2321
User avatar
willwren
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 65489
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Contact:

Re: SERIES 1

Post by willwren »

For your 95, yes. The dark blue wire assuming you find the right relay. Compare ALL wire colors from the schematic to the relay. I can't really see much in your photo, but it SEEMS right from the blurred impression I'm getting. You ground the coil of the relay to pull the contacts. This will only work when the ignition is on.
Image
Click here for mod list for both cars
93 SSEi, 95 SLE (supercharged) 97 Buick LeSabre Limited
PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers
Post Reply