When gasoline goes to 15% ethonal

[J Wikoff]

Cars' mileage ratings need to start coming with adjusted numbers for different fuel blends so people are more aware.

[ayamen]

I wouldn't have any beef with Ethanol if it wasn't such an obviously political move to make it out of corn rather than a viable commodity.

[J Wikoff]

I think it's corn because it is widely available and a bit of infrastructure wasn't too bad to build. Other means needed more time to develop.

[SacramentoE85]

Various sources other than corn are coming on line, but it's been a slow go. The financial crisis took out a lot of steam out of the investment crowd right as the non-corn technology was coming of age. Now there are a few in production small scale, and a few starting to go big. Project Liberty (Poet) started taking delivery of corn stover bales (parts of the plants-not the corn starch) in recent days. Corn starch ethanol is just an imperfect (but better than imported petroleum) start towards a diversification of more than several fuels and technologies to decrease our dependence on foreign oil.

2006 Chevy Impala (non-FFV), 26 months on E30+ (30K+ mi), no fuel system or engine problems, no need for a tune-up (no carbon deposits--the ethanol keeps the plugs and fuel system much more clean). Plenty of power, can't calculate a change in fuel economy. No need for E15...E30 is excellent! Though the rest of the crowd with fuel-injection should be a little bit better off with E15 than had been with E10...E30 will come a bunch of years down the road when ethanol production triples. By that time, this old fleet will be mostly off the road and most all vehicles will be FFV or better (search the new Buick Regal FFV).

[lowrider0308]

[BonneMe]

2006 Chevy Impala (non-FFV), 26 months on E30+ (30K+ mi), no fuel system or engine problems, no need for a tune-up (no carbon deposits--the ethanol keeps the plugs and fuel system much more clean). Plenty of power, can't calculate a change in fuel economy. No need for E15...E30 is excellent! Though the rest of the crowd with fuel-injection should be a little bit better off with E15 than had been with E10...E30 will come a bunch of years down the road when ethanol production triples. By that time, this old fleet will be mostly off the road and most all vehicles will be FFV or better (search the new Buick Regal FFV).

There is a change in power and fuel economy, even on FFVs, period. You cannot get around that. That's like saying A glass of Coke and a glass of JD+Coke do the same things to a human..

When ethanol production triples? Good luck with that.

E15 isn't better for a "normal" car than E10 is. They are not designed, built, or tuned for it. E85 has some use in boosted performance applications redesigned for it, but with a standard non-FFV vehicle, more ethanol is bad, period.

[00Beast]

There is no way ethanol production can triple. Period. The United States produced 12 Billion Bushels of corn last year, one of the best yields ever, and every kernel will be swept out of the bins at cooperatives across the nation to hopefully have enough to last till next year's harvest.

U.S. usage breakdown
The breakdown of usage of the 12.1 billion bushel 2008 U.S. corn crop was as follows, according to the World Agricultural Supply and Demand Estimates Report by the USDA.
5.25 billion bu. - Livestock feed
3.65 billion bu. - Ethanol production
1.85 billion bu. - Exports
943 million bu. - Production of Starch, Corn Oil, Sweeteners (HFCS,etc.)
327 million bu. - Human consumption - grits, corn flower, corn meal, beverage alcohol

For ethanol's production to triple we would have to allocate over 75% of our current corn production. So we would not be able to feed our animals or export corn, and all we'd be able to do would be produce ethanol, Jack Daniel's and Soda Pop. Not gonna happen buddy.

[willwren]

I hear there's alot of corn on the shelves at the local Sacramento Safeway. Canned corn is already soft, and should produce high-quality ethanol in a shorter period of time. I bet the dented cans are free, too! Sorry, I couldn't help myself.


I think using canned corn to make up for the shortfall makes more sense than using more harvested corn than we can possibly produce though.

[1oldman]

If we were smart about how we did it we might come close. The Bud brewery in St Louis has it's waste mash(?) used to make ethonal. Just think, drink more beer, make more ethonal. LMAO!! sorry -

The e10 made now is just used to cover up the sorry stuff they refine as gasoline. e15 will just give them more cover to refine even worse fuel and the fuel systems on older vehicles won't take it as well either. double zap! - BC

[Wes]

What about the use of hemp seed oil? Disregarding the obvious legal reasons why we wouldnt currently be able to use it. This is one of many reasons it is extremely out dated and ignorant to ignore the vast uses of the idustrial hemp that contains little, to no psychoactive thc.

qoute from one of many sites with info

Hemp is at least four times richer in biomass/cellulose potential than its nearest rivals: cornstalks, sugarcane, kenaf, trees, etc.

Hemp produces the most biomass of any crop, which is why it is the natural choice for an energy crop. Hemp converts the sun's energy into cellulose faster than any other plant, through photosynthesis. Hemp can produce 10 tons of biomass per acre every four months. Enough energy could be produced on 6% of the land in the U.S. to provide enough energy for our entire country (cars, heat homes, electricity, industry) -- and we use 25% of the world's energy.

http://www.hemphasis.net/Fuel-Energy/fuel.htm

[00Beast]

Corn is the most widely grown, easiest to find, and IIRC it has the highest yield/bushel for any ethanol production method. That's why its used the most.

[GoldenBullet]

2006 Chevy Impala (non-FFV), 26 months on E30+ (30K+ mi), no fuel system or engine problems, no need for a tune-up (no carbon deposits--the ethanol keeps the plugs and fuel system much more clean). Plenty of power, can't calculate a change in fuel economy.

You might want to try a calculator.

[willwren]

Anyone that says they get the same mileage on Regular dino-juice and E10 is a liar.

Anyone who says the same about E30 either failed math or is 3 times the liar.



There is not as much energy in Ethanol. The higher the blend, the poorer the mileage. It's a physical fact.

[lowrider0308]

The destructive properties of ethanol to older and marine fuel systems is a fact as well. E10 has been a nightmare for boat owners (me included) who are worried about the o-rings, fuel lines, and gas tanks. We have a boat mechanic friend who informed us of the problems of the rubber breaking down and clogging up the fuel system along with the increased attraction of moisture in the tanks with ethanol. The engine manual to our Mariner outboard says to run the special boat/ethanol formula Stabil (not the regular kind) to help the fuel system when storing. That stuff runs about $30 a bottle down here.

[willwren]

Ethanol is a known moisture magnet. Methanol, a very close relative, is a thorn in my side at work for this reason. The moisture content, even in summer with very low humidity, increases dramatically over a very short period of time. This is a big problem for me when I'm cleaning laser optics with it.

Increase the ratio? Not in my tank. I prefer no moisture and better mileage. Not to mention the fact that fuel would be cheaper without it, and we have HUGE reserve fields that haven't been tapped yet.

[1oldman]

willwren posted "Increase the ratio? Not in my tank. I prefer no moisture and better mileage. Not to mention the fact that fuel would be cheaper without it"

Thanks Bill, for making two of my points for me. - BC

[SacramentoE85]

Ahh, struck a nerve. Laughing.

I said "ethanol" production triples. Not "corn ethanol" triples.

Yes, there is a way, and yes it will occur. Most all of the plant material all around us can be fermented. The science is there, as is the economics...the financing is next. Maybe this "troll" should sign out and check back in 10 years with some updated "ethanol" (not corn ethanol) production numbers. Well, maybe sooner than 10 years.

And yes, increased performance without noticeable fuel economy loss is most certainly possible and does occur. Ethanol is a different fuel from gasoline, and is a more efficient fuel per BTU. At 20-30% ethanol, numerous studies have showed little or no decrease in fuel economy. And even if there were an up to 2% decrease in fuel economy, the difference is made up in lower fuel price and engine/fuel system longevity.

You all really need to get in touch with some race car drivers or mechanics that use higher level ethanol fuels and have had a lot of testing and experience with it. Or we can keep on speaking past each other. No harm either way--"ethanol" production will keep climbing and most of the public will come on board.

2006 Chevy Impala (non-FFV), 26 months on E30+ (30K+ mi), no fuel system or engine problems, no need for a tune-up (no carbon deposits--the ethanol keeps the plugs and fuel system much more clean). Plenty of power, can't calculate a change in fuel economy.

You might want to try a calculator.

I could certainly use one of the 12 calculators I own, or the one on my work desk that I use constantly every day. I didn't mean it that way--I meant that I have done the calculations, and they are minute or non-existent; so little that any change can be + or - for more or less ethanol, but probably driving style, wind direction, stop signs, tire inflation, and all the other factors that mess up anecdotal studies. One fact for sure--I don't lose 30 to 50% of my fuel economy, like some like to post in their anti-ethanol bashing comments.

[willwren]

Sacratomato, when people put their cars on the track, they care a little less about the cost of the fuel and the mileage, and in many cases, their fuel is dictated to them.

And Ethanl has less energy per unit than Gasoline, so your comments above regarding performance and efficiency have no merit in a scientific world. Where you get your information is beyond me, but I suggest taking a physics class at a local college.

[bsan63]

Here's a thought. Now mind you it's only a thought.

If ethanol is a moisture magnet, then wouldn't a .99 cent bottle of Heet at each fill-up take care of the moisture problem?

It won't do anything for the crappy mileage but it seems to me it would at least stop the moisture or at least slow it down.

Now granted you've got another expense but sometimes they run specials on HEET which can make it even cheaper.

[00Beast]

Bsan, Heet is methanol. It's designed to absorb moisture and transform it into a chemical that will go through fuel systems w/o damage.

And SacramentoE85, a troll is someone who only pops in to push their agenda or cause trouble. 39 posts over 2 years, almost all about how E85 is going to save us - Troll. 9500 posts over the same time, helping out members with their own issues - Productive member of this forum. When you actually chip into helping further this forum, and not just preach Ethanol, then I might respect you. Until then, you're a troll.