When gasoline goes to 15% ethonal

[1oldman]

what is going to be done for pre-2007 engines.? The valve stems and valve stem guides won't take it unless someone comes up with an additive in the gasoline that will take care of that, and am I sure there are other issues going on with 15% ethonal gas that I don't know about.

[myfirstbonnie]

Here in Oregon we have been running 10% all year for 2 years now and have not had an issue. I don't think 5% more will change much.

Now if it was a big jump like 30%, I would worry a lot more. I even run it in my 89 without issues.

[00Beast]

It has nothing to do with the valve stems. It has everything to do with rubber in the fuel lines being degraded at an advanced rate due to the alcohol. I don't think 15% will make a huge difference. The cars it's gonna affect the most are carb'd cars, and that's where deoxygenated fuels come in. 0% Ethanol.

[1oldman]

You are very mistaken if you think 15% ethanol is not going to damage a pre-2007 engine.

We've been running 10% for over 5 years here. The stuff is crappy and you don't go as far on a gallon. It causes carbon buildup and is corrosive. That is why then can only haul E85 and ethonal in special tank trucks and no ethonal or E85 in pipelines.


From USA Today:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/money/new ... yid=171527

From ForeDayNews:
http://www.foredaynews.com/epa-says-yes ... 07/881098/

[sandrock]

Cars run crappy on blended fuel because the PCM is tuned for 100% gasoline. The stoich is hard set at 14.7, so it will always try to stay at that level, even though e10 is something like 13.8 and e85 is in the 9s. Buy a tuner, change a few numbers, and the PCM will work the way it needs to.

The biggest thing that makes a car a flex-fuel is a sensing capability that allows the PCM to switch between regular fuel and ethanol. Older vehicles and anything carbed (with composite floats) DO have issues with the fuel, and don't last too long in the fuel system department. But to have an engine go bad internally?? Not buying it.

[00Beast]

Oldman, I responded to your PM. I still have not found one shred of research to disprove what I stated earlier.

Here's some more info for y'all.

[1oldman]

If ethonal wasn't corrosive, then it could be shipped by pipeline. It can't be shipped by pipeline, only by special tank truck. And it will damage pre-2007 engines just like unleaded gas will damage engines built to run only on gasoline made with tetra-ethyl lead.

[00Beast]

Um, did you actually read those articles?

Engine valve damaged by carbon buildup from fuel with 20% ethanol. The blend created resin in a fiberglass boat fuel tank and the resulting gunk coated the valve.

Also, This is NOTHING like the switch from leaded to unleaded gas. Unleaded gas burned up valve seats, which were converted to hardened seats with the switch to Unleaded. Also, it was not an instant process. We have tractors from the 30's and 40's that are still on the original valve seats. I do not see any of the similarities between these two transitions.

[sandrock]

The reason it isn't shipped by pipeline is.......there isn't as big a market for it. Nobody would lay pipe across the United States for a fuel that can be made anywhere corn can be grown. That just makes the most economical sense.

And as I said earlier...if a cars computer isn't tuned to run ethanol, of course it will run crappy and will tend to want to destroy itself. Tune the PCM, and the engine will be much happier. And if ethanol is as corrosive as you tout it is, the engine has no worries anyways...the fuel delivery system will crap out before it does.

[1oldman]

The reason there is no market is because they don't have a delivery system for it. Only tank trucks. They won't spend the money to build a pipeline to handle only ethonal. This has been the bug-a-boo since we started using E10

[1oldman]

Hey beast, I can't read your post. I sent you a PM.

[1oldman]

IF YOU THINK E15 or E85 is okay, you better read these:

From biofuelswatch.com:
http://www.biofuelswatch.com/problems-with-ethanol-2/

From fuel testers.com
http://www.fuel-testers.com/marine_boat ... blems.html

From Aztec rentals - 4 main problems with E10
http://blog.aztecrentalcenters.com/2010 ... -fuel-e10/

If you think there is no problem with pipelines and ethonal then read this:
http://www.planetnautique.com/vb3/showt ... th-Ethanol

[harofreak00]

Moving this to Gen Chat as its a non-mechanical issue.

PLEASE try to keep the battle civil. No drama. This is the internet, you can't change peoples opinions with a few links.

[00Beast]

The original isn't any better than the pic I posted. Sorry.

Not saying it's good, but it is what it is.

[lowrider0308]

Florida is an E10 only state. It cause problems on boats with plastic tanks and old rubber lines and o-rings. Some boat dealers and marinas sell ethanol free fuel for hotrods and boats but it is expensive. You get less MPG and a worse idle after running it in our 4 vehicles and our old v4 carb'd boat and newer v6 carb'd boat. This is a scam for the farmers. When my MPG's drop, I end up buying and burning more gas, so how does it help the enviroment. I also wonder how I am helping the enviroment when it takes a crap load of water to make ethanol iirc. My GM truck manual also says not to tow on E85, even though I have a flex fuel (vin Z) truck.

[01bonneSC]

Moving this to Gen Chat as its a non-mechanical issue.

PLEASE try to keep the battle civil. No drama. This is the internet, you can't change peoples opinions with a few links.

Shouldnt it be in lounge?

[01bonneSC]

Florida is an E10 only state. It cause problems on boats with plastic tanks and old rubber lines and o-rings. Some boat dealers and marinas sell ethanol free fuel for hotrods and boats but it is expensive. You get less MPG and a worse idle after running it in our 4 vehicles and our old v4 carb'd boat and newer v6 carb'd boat. This is a scam for the farmers. When my MPG's drop, I end up buying and burning more gas, so how does it help the enviroment. I also wonder how I am helping the enviroment when it takes a crap load of water to make ethanol iirc. My GM truck manual also says not to tow on E85, even though I have a flex fuel (vin Z) truck.

Its also get to us off of overseas use of resources.

[00Beast]

It takes more than 1 gallon of Oil to make one gallon of ethanol. Not efficient in the least.

[1oldman]

If we were serious about ethonal, we'd be using sugar cane and other organic sources other than grain.

[human]

I normally put BP in my cars because I get a 5% discount w/my BP credit card. Around here, their gas is 100% petroleum. In my Cadillac, which prefers premium, I can really tell a difference on the rare occasions I fill up elsewhere and the gas is E10. In-town mileage as read from the DIC drops from the 16-17 range down to around 13 or 14. I don't have a DIC on my Bonneville, but I filled it with E10 on Friday, and the gas gauge seems to be telling a similar story.

I like the idea of biofuels, but I think the greatest potential lies on the diesel side of the equation.