Upgrading Big 3

[mntnbkr]

Ooh, I'm sorry I missed this one (I've been away from internet (mostly) since last Monday) as it's a good topic with a pretty intelligent debate.

It's been a long time since I've been in this game, but here's my $.02. I agree almost entirely with Bugsi, however I do believe there could be some slight advantage to having upgraded wires (not with the specified amp though) and here's why. When a sub amp hits a low bass note, the battery essentially acts as a capacitor by allowing the amp to draw more current than the alternator can supply for brief intervals. This is apparent when the lights dim and your volt gauge drops from 14.4V down to 12 or 13V. The upgraded wire will decrease resistance allowing the voltage to remain more consistent (higher), and the current draw to remain slightly lower for a given wattage.

That said, voltage drop across the wiring in your vehicle will be negligible until you start drawing a heck of a lot more power than that amp is going to draw. If you're really worried about it, your money would be better spent adding a cap to your system between the amp and the battery when you install your sub amp. (then pocket the left-over cash)

You can run some pretty high wattage on the stock wiring with absolutely no ill effects as long as you have everything set up right. Personally I've never seen the need to upgrade any factory wiring, or the factory alternator, or add a capacitor to any of my systems... and I've had some pretty loud systems.

With regard to your lights dimming when you roll up your windows; it's most likely due to tired out window regulators requiring more current than usual. It happens when the grease gets dirty or dry and the linkages start to get too sloppy or too tight. My old '86 Monte SS used to do that (big windows) so I would rev the engine a bit to keep the voltage up and current draw down when rolling up the windows.

[do9105]

just thought I'd let everyone know that the time is coming where I start getting a good amount of watts flowing through my system.

I plan on running these amps or different amps with equal watts:
http://www.woofersetc.com/p4190/ZX15001 ... lifier.htm
http://www.woofersetc.com/p6856/FD-2200 ... lifier.htm

Now do you think it would be worth it to upgrade my "Big 3"? Or would those amps run fine without upgrading the big 3?

[Bugsi]

That Kicker ZX 1500.1 amp recommends a second battery and a minimum 140 amp alternator. Yes, you should upgrade or you risk turning your existing wiring into giant flaming fusible links.

Do you think you can maybe spare some room in your trunk for a nuclear power plant?

[do9105]

Actually, I'm not getting that. I decided to go with a 2 ohm sub instead of 4 ohms. So I'll be going with this one for sure.

http://www.woofersetc.com/p6859/FD-6001 ... lifier.htm

for this sub

http://www.woofersetc.com/p6224/IDQ12V3 ... woofer.htm

well, I'm going to be upgrading the wires anyways, regardless of whether or not it's needed because for some reason it's really bugging me that I don't have it upgraded and it doesn't really cost that much and really, it can only help.

I'm just confused on one thing. I've been reading around about upgrading the big 3 and the only part im confused about is the alternator negative. In the rockford fosgate youtube video they connect the alternator's negative directly to the battery's negative post. But theres a problem with this.. the alternator doesn't have a negative post?? I dont think? lol. But I've also been reading that you can just connect a wire from the chassis to the engine. Would these both be kind of the same thing since the chassis is where the battery is connected to and the engine is connected to the alternator?

[Bugsi]

Regardless of my cautioning that you do not need to upgrade your big three wiring for your 370 watt sub amplifier, I do want to be really clear on a couple things: (1) I've seen the OEM wiring go bad for no particular reason at all, typically the positive battery cable, where it corroded down its length inside the cable's insulation. (2) Replacing the stock wiring with equal or better cables *will not hurt* anything (other than maybe your wallet) -provided you use equal or better quality cables. (We had one guy use speaker cable, so we're obligated to point out that you can use worse or inappropriate cable, and that would not help.) (3) In mobile audio installations where you install enough amplifiers to put a significant draw on the vehicle's electrical system, upgrading cables, batteries, & alternator can *absolutely* be necessary.

The whole point is to know the electrical requirements of the gear you're putting in the car, and know the electrical capabilities of the supply components you already have. If you're going to overload the OEM gear, then upgrade. If you're not, then there's no need to do so, unless your OEM gear already has some defects, which is entirely possible. Either way, upgrading won't *hurt*, except for your wallet and some time.

Regarding your alternator ground: Your alternator is grounded where it bolts to the car. There is not a cable for this. You can't make that cable bigger because there isn't one. It just bolts to the bracket it mounts to, okay? You can shine up the bolt and face of the bracket with a fine wire brush if you like, but you can't make it bigger. It's fine just the way it is.

[do9105]

but doesn't the alternator ground need to be connected to the chassis with a wire?

if you look on this website i can show you which part im confused about.
http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads ... 025/page/1

the 3rd one

1) Battery negative to chassis
2) Alternator to battery positive
3) Chassis to engine

i wouldn't be suprised if im overthinking this..

[grandprix104]

um no, the alt is metal, the engine is metal, and metal conducts electricity. :D
So in more detail the outer metal shell of the alt is ground/neg.
It is not a bad idea to upgrade or check the ground strap/cable between the engine and frame, but is not necessary. Especially with a stock Alt. It would be a good idea to at least clean up the connections.

You are very much over thinking this IMHO.

Keep in mind that replacing the factory wiring with aftermarket will introduce components that are far more suceptable to corrosion. You also introduce the possibility of problems everytime you mess with the factory config. I would know LOL.

[Bugsi]

Chassis to engine is not alternator to anything, it's chassis to engine. The engine block needs to be grounded, and with motor mounts that use urethane or rubber to damp vibrations, there is usually (always?) some sort of thick strap of braided copper, or some other form of cable that provides an absolute ground connection between the chassis (frame or unibody of the car) to the engine block. There is typically a similar type of strap from the battery negative terminal to the unibody/frame of the car. In this way, the engine and the rest of the car's body are all grounded to the negative battery pole.

People who have pulled the 3800 from their Bonneville's can surely tell you where this strap is located, I've never pulled a 3800, but on other cars it's been very obvious where the ground strap is when pulling an engine. The ground strap is very thick, but if you are hellbent on beefing them up, you could either double it up with a second stock strap, or replace it with a larger gauge cable. Same thing for the battery to chassis/body.

[Bugsi]

but doesn't the alternator ground need to be connected to the chassis with a wire?

NO!

I repeat:

Regarding your alternator ground: Your alternator is grounded where it bolts to the car. There is not a cable for this. You can't make that cable bigger because there isn't one. It just bolts to the bracket it mounts to, okay?

[do9105]

then why are tutorials online telling me to connect a wire from the battery ground to the engine? why don't they just connect the ground of the battery to the chassis of the car and leave it at that?

[00Beast]

Because in those tutorials the battery is in the engine compartment. In that configuration, the negative battery cable is hooked to the engine, and then the engine is grounded to the chassis, then everything else is grounded to some kind of metal. In ours, the engine is grounded to the frame, then the frame is grounded to the battery.

[do9105]

hmm.. this is sorta making more sense to me. Although I don't fully understand why battery placement should affect how the battery is grounded in a car..

[excessive81]

ok here is my .o2....
first set up 450 watts...no issues with stock wires. when i added the next setup ...1450 watts total with added sub.. i had lights dimming and at a stop light i could drain battery so low the car computer would freak out. big three does/did nothing at this point. so i think 500 watts with a good amp is about max with stock wires ect. so at this point i upgraded to yellow top.... same issue... 2 1 farad caps ...same issue. next i got a 170 amp alternator and 0 gauge wire from it to battery... issue was solved.... for a min! then i went big added another 1000 watt amp and another 12.... back to same issue. at this point i bought another battery and a dual battery relay to separate the car from the stereo completely. needless to say this is def the way to go if you gonna have BIG power. i even was able to pull the caps (i am not a fan) out of the setup. this setup will keep car running as usual (computer happy) even if you drain other battery completey to point amps shut off....lets just say trust me on this one =)
needless to say that is really bad on your battery i have melted them to point the pop the seal and hiss/leak. so i run optima red tops on the stereo now cause they have a 3 year warranty vrs 1 year on yellow tops. both seem to last right at two years in big setups. so free swap vrs 75$ swap is why i run the reds. and if you want to extend the time you can blast stereo before battery and alt cant keep up you can add another battery. now i am done at this point but if youwhre really crazy and dont want sound quility and just want to rattle windows and need more. then you gonna need another alt as well.

[ChilinMichael]

It's become necessary for me to upgrade because in the future I'll have a small amp in rear for speakers and air pump for rear air suspension...would anyone have suggestions as to what wires in specific to use?

[do9105]

Hey, so I thought I'd let everyone know that I have just gotten the big 3 done a week ago with 1/0 gauge wiring and I have even added a sub that is running at 600 watts. so that is nearly 1000 watts in my stereo system. Guess what? My lights hardly dim at all. less than they did before without the wiring and only my 150x2 watt rms front speakers.

Let's be honest here.. that stock + power wire from the amp to the batt. is TINY!!


On a side note... Reading back at my previous posts I feel like a huge fvcking dumbass. haha. Thank you for putting up with me in my times of retardation.

[ChilinMichael]

LOL....can you post up some pics?

[do9105]

pics of what exactly?

[ChilinMichael]

The wires...

That is what this topic is about? lol

I've got my 1/0 gauge wire sitting on my desk with a set of ends...have to get another set so I can, in one shot, do the alternator -> battery and battery -> starter

[do9105]

i didnt do anything with battery -> started.. just did alt -> batttery, engine -> chassis, battery -> chassis all in 1/0 gauge