Upgrading Big 3

[do9105]

I was thinking of upgrading the Big 3 in my bonneville and I saw a rockford fosgate video/tutorial on youtube and they connected the battery to the chassis and the engine on it. So should I also be connecting the battery to the engine?? it doesn't sound like something that makes sense to me.. lol. Also where is the alternator on my '03 bonneville.. haha I've never really looked before and its kinda late and i dont wanna go out to my car. I could always figure it out in the morning but if someones on right now and wants to let me know.. thatd be great .. so is it under our seat or in the engine bay?

[myfirstbonnie]

Questions:

What is big 3?
Are you talking about connecting both battery leads to the chassis? The negative (black) lead doeas, but the positive (red) does not.
Alternator is on the engine passenger side by the firewall. It is run by the accessory belt.

Is there a project or something you are working on or thinking of? It sounds as though you do not have much knowledge of your car and there are several of us here who can assist you.

[do9105]

upgrading the big 3 is this

Definition: the "Big Three" upgrade means improving the current capacity of three cables: 1) alternator positive to battery positive, 2) battery negative to chassis, and 3) engine ground to chassis. Some people replace the factory wiring; others add additional cables to the factory wiring. This instruction is to add cables to existing OEM wiring.

i got that from here: http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/for ... 73496~PN~1

but I wouldn't consider myself completely unknowledgable about bonnevilles :p

the reason I'm doing this is because I'm going to be upgrading my sound system and I want my amp to be able to draw all the power it needs/can.. plus i just noticed my lights dimming when i was rolling up my windows today.. so all that made me think this would be a good idea.

[myfirstbonnie]

I have never heard of this and have never been into the stereos running big amps. There are several on here who have thogh that might pop in in the morning.

Another thing for you to take note of is your battery being under the rear seat.

[do9105]

yeah.. i just realized i left that out of my first post. the reason that connecting the battery to the engine didn't sound like it made sense to me because of that.

[myfirstbonnie]

There is a ground path from the battery to the engine. The older cars actually had the main ground going from the battery negative lead to the alternator bracket.

Are you running any big amps at the current moment?

[bonnevillain]

This is a very common term in audio circles.
But, In regard to your lights dimming.. a little bit should be normal, but you should check to make sure your alternator is good before you go upgrading wiring. What type of system are you planning?

[do9105]

Right now its just going to be an amp and some component speakers. But I will be getting a sub and an amp once i get the money for it.

the amp I'm going to install tomorrow though is this one: http://www.woofersetc.com/p6856/FD-2200 ... lifier.htm

I realize that the big 3 won't be vital or even matter that much right now but once i start getting a sub and an amp it most likely will make a difference. The big 3 is just something that I'm thinking about doing right now.

so about wiring the alternator to the battery.. I would assume this would be easy to do since there is already wire going from the battery to the alternator? does anyone know for sure? And should I just wire the battery to the chassis of the car?

edit: i just read myfirstbonnie's post and I guess I don't really have a good understanding about grounding paths.. So do I need to upgrade a wire from the battery to the engine and the chassis? or is just the chassis o.k.?

[bonnevillain]

so about wiring the alternator to the battery.. I would assume this would be easy to do since there is already wire going from the battery to the alternator?

There is, but you do know your battery is under the rear seat, right? running a new cable all the way up will take some work.

And should I just wire the battery to the chassis of the car?

The negative terminal only, yes. But take a look at the existing ground under the rear seat from the battery to the floor. It's fairly large already, and it's very short as well. I don't see it needing to be upgraded, but i can't recall what size it is offhand.

[do9105]

i do realize that the battery is under the rear seat. When i say it should be easy to upgrade that wire i just mean easIER than most cars :p

i would just like a little clarification on this also, is it or is it not neccesary to upgrade the wire (if there is one) to the engine?

[Bugsi]

I realize that the big 3 won't be vital or even matter that much right now but once i start getting a sub and an amp it most likely will make a difference. The big 3 is just something that I'm thinking about doing right now.

I'm going to take a different approach and disagree with you. I believe upgrading the 3 cables you are considering upgrading will do absolutely nothing for your sound from the 370 watt amplifier you are considering, even with the addition of a sub, and will be a complete and total waste of money, time, and effort.

Typically, you run a separate power cable to your amplifier, preferably directly from your battery, and a separate ground from the amplifier directly to the chassis/body of the car. Your existing cables from the battery to the alternator are already sufficient to handle the amount of current that flows between them. Likewise, the existing battery to chassis ground cables are already sufficient to handle all of the current between them. I absolutely do not understand what it is you expect to gain by upgrading these cables, and I believe that neither do you, since you've been unable to state exactly what result you think these cables are going to give you. You're being mightily vague by saying "it most likely will make a difference". (It will not.)

On the other hand, you ought to seriously check out why your lights are dimming. That's completely not normal. Generally this is a sign of either: (1) A weak or dying battery. (2) Corroded battery cables. (3) Failing alternator. (4) Bad or corroded ground connections. I have no objection to you replacing a cable that is failing, such as a corroded cable, but replacing or upgrading your otherwise normal battery cables is pretty much pointless for the application you are describing, and will get you no benefits whatsoever.

If you really do have some expectation that "upgraded" cables (what exactly do you mean by this, anyway, do you mean larger gauge?), please clearly state WHAT tangible result you are expecting to get out of this.

Ah what the heck, just to play devil's advocate, I checked the site you listed for information on upgrading your "big 3" and I checked out the PDF manual for your amplifier. The amplifier's manual recommends running an 8-Gauge power cable from the battery to the amplifier, and the amp is fused at 25 amps. The site with the information on upgrading your "big 3" is also very vague about what improvements you're supposed to expect, but does explain that upgrading these cables is something that becomes important once you've added a high-output alternator. Let's be clear: Electricity is pretty straightforward, there isn't really any misunderstood magic going on here. Your vehicle's electrical system (including your new amp and sub) will draw some maximum current (or try to, anyway) and it's up to your alternator+battery+cables to either supply the demanded current, or fail in some way while attempting to do so. A 2003 SE likely comes with a 125 amp alternator. All of the stock "big 3" cables that come with the car can handle 125 amps. You should have your system load-tested to see what the maximum draw is with all of your lights and amp on, and see if you're able to pull beyond the 125 amp capacity of your alternator. If you do, then upgrade the alternator, and we'll revisit whether the existing cables can handle the higher current of a higher output alternator, and whether a cable upgrade is needed. (I'm doubtful.)

[88bonnsse]

the big 3.......

i have done the big 3 on my car with zero gauge.. and let me tell you.. everybody has their opinion and some think its sensless to upgrade but trust me its a big essential in car audio..

and yes you have to upgrade both grounds from the battery and the power..

it will make a difference.. your power going to your amps is only as good as your wire size.. so the bigger the wires.. the more power that can travel thru them and get to your amps..

but most important in any system is the alternator and the battery..

these 2 will provide the power that your amps will need to stay in good high voltage..

you may not have to upgrade the alternator but i would recemend upgrading your battery to an optima yellow top..

these are pretty darn good for car audio and will store and release energy batter and faster then most car batteries which is what an amp needs,, power and alot of it fast...


i would reccomend in your kind of install upgrading your big three to a zero or 2 gauge size wire and then your power and grounds for your amps to a 2 or 4 gauge depending on your big three..


if you have any questions or need any help then feel free to pm me for my number..

i have been doing this for 8 yrs now... always willing to help a fellow member..

[00Beast]

He has a 2003. Optima does not carry the yellow or red top for the 00+, where the battery is underneath the backseat. His output all depends on what he plans to run as far as audio. Also, the positive wire is going to be a pain in the butt to run, as it runs from the backseat all the way to the engine bay.

[Bugsi]

the big 3.......
i have done the big 3 on my car with zero gauge.. and let me tell you.. everybody has their opinion and some think its sensless to upgrade but trust me its a big essential in car audio..

I don't disagree that upgrading the alternator, the cables, or even the battery capacity is a good idea or necessary thing, when installing gear that will draw high levels of current that a car's stock equipment cannot deliver. But in this case, he's adding an amplifier that will not challenge the capabilities that his original equipment can handle.

it will make a difference.. your power going to your amps is only as good as your wire size.. so the bigger the wires.. the more power that can travel thru them and get to your amps..

For an amp installation that will actually draw current levels that exceeds the stock equipment's capacity, this is certainly true. The amp he's installing recommends an 8 gauge power wire to the amp. An 8 gauge wire can handle a minimum of 40 amps. His amplifier is fused at 25 amps. If more than 25 amps ever tries to flow into his amp, that fuse will blow. Having an electrical infrastructure in his car that can supply at least 70 or 95 amps (the specs for the 4 and 2 gauge wire you recommend for him) to his amplifier will certainly not *hurt* anything (other than his bank account), but it's not going to change the fact that his amp's fuse is going to blow if it ever sees more than 25 amps. Spending the time and money to upgrade a power delivery infrastructure to deliver oodles of current that the amplifier he's using will never be able to use , well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it will not make a difference.

The problem I have with this kind of advice is that it *is* good advice when given with respect to an install where it will really help. But for a single 370 watt amplifier that can not ever pass more than 25 amps through its own power supply fuse, I've yet to hear anyone say exactly what "the difference" they claim it will make is actually supposed to be.

I don't question your credentials at all, but do take into consideration that he's just wanting to install a 370 watt amp and a sub. I'm all for using high quality amp wiring, and I'm all for a person having a good battery/alternator and cables when adding audio gear. I'm usually one of the first people to suggest inspecting one's battery cables for corrosion, as I've had the positive battery cable corrode and fail on all of the five Pontiacs I've owned. But in this case, he's suggesting adding current supply capability that his car's stock configuration can very likely supply without *any* upgrades, and that his amplifier absolutely cannot make use of. In this case, I don't see any point other than pointing out exactly how much he doesn't require this upgrade. Sure, it won't hurt his sound, but there's no electrical or audio benefit I can see here, and none that anybody has been able to state. Just saying "It will make a difference" is pretty polemic without saying what difference it will make.

The difference such an upgrade can make in an audio install that will out-demand the stock electrical equipment on the car is that an upgraded system will supply the demanded current, where the stock equipment will not. When you out-pull the stock equipment the battery voltage will begin to sag. The demanded current will not be supplied, and the chest-thumping sound you were expecting from your expensive audio rig will not happen and will instead sound like walking on heads of lettuce at best, or shut down at worst.

[LeSabre in Buffalo]

Why not clean all the grounding points you can find? That made a noticeable difference for my car with headlight brightness and power window speed.

[ChilinMichael]

I'm thinking about upgrading the "big 3" as well from your definition of it. I've become completely unhappy with GM's contacts at the battery as they corrode easily and lose conductivity along with that fact. Not to mention, who knows the condition of the wires after all these years... Ground point cleaning sounds like a good idea too. We need a good write-up!

[Bugsi]

I *do* agree completely with performing a thorough inspection of the OEM cables and connections, and replacing any corroded cables and connectors with new, and shining up any contact points and grounds. Likewise, making sure your battery is in top condition, and that your alternator is fully functioning. Replace anything that is not performing to spec. Higher output alternators and larger capacity batteries are available, as well as new cables.

All of this falls under maintenance, and should be the first stop for anyone experiencing any electrical issues such as dimming headlights under electrical loads.

Does anyone know the gauge of the OEM battery to alternator cables?

[myfirstbonnie]

The replacement listed at http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=MPB&PartNumber=781153&Description=Battery+Cable+-+Positive is listed as a 4 gauge wire 5 ft long. Listed as the same at Schuck's auto supply. Shuck's lists the negative as a 2 gauge http://shop.oreillyauto.com/productdetail.aspx?MfrCode=OSS&MfrPartNumber=08598&PartType=178&PTSet=A

[LeSabre in Buffalo]

Here's a quick-and-dirty how-to on cleaning engine-bay grounds for 92-99's:
http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... 19&t=12880

Cleaning battery terminals, no pictures:
http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/fo ... y+terminal

[rmac694203]

I'll be doing this to my 02 soon. Already have the 1/0 welding cable. But, I'm also running a 1200+ watt sub amp and I'm getting voltage drops down to 12.3 volts or so.

Doesn't seem too hard. Getting the 1/0 through the firewall should be the biggest challenge.