the tuner reasoning write up (98 gs subject matter)

[gigolo]

this math is based on the findings of Amanda’s 98 gs. The only mod is a very cheap but yet effective HAI to delete the crappy stock 98 airbox setup. The car still has the ubend and crappy side inlet muffler setup and stock t stat and plugs and fuel filter.
She has had a stock tune in her car and she would avg 23.9 mpg Last time she was here we did a little tweaking of the maf and timing tables. She came back this time for an interview (which she got the job), and avg was 25.5. we spent the weekend using her car instead of mine and tweaking the timing and maf some more to dial it in closer to 0 and change the fan settings.
she went back home and said the dic said she got over 30mpg. now she may have had a tail wind none the less we will work with the #s we have
avg miles per yr is 15k then you take the old mpg and using 17 gallons a refill and getting the same mileage across the board that equals roughly 37 full refills of gas per yr
now you take the avg for 30 mpg and it is roughly 30 tanks of gas
using very loose numbers here you take the difference at $2.75 a gallon x 7 tanks which is about 120 gallons. using that math you would be ahead $330 and save the environment from 120 gallon worth of emissions
now assuming you got the same 30 mpg for a second year netting the same 330 dollar savings you would have the cost of a hptuners pro setup worth saved in gas alone. now mind you this is a stockish car.
I am sure you are saying the learning curve is too steep and I dont have the time. You drive the car dont you. with pro you get standalone capability and wideband input.
Now wide band for the sake of ease is 200 bucks now you have a tuner a wideband and the internet. if you can research and have the guts to try tuning you can dial your car in nicely.
Another point to ponder the HPT setup comes with 8 credits you can use or aka 4 vehicles, if you and another local were to split the cost and split the tuner time you could even make this who proposition cheaper still or trade tuner time for parts and or services like I did.
so for those of you that say I wont be helped by a tune or I am stock what do I need a tune for, may I direct u to the above example.
The other I forgot to mention is that you could set one tune up for mpg then yet another for power. now the last but not least thing by far, GET OVER PULLEY ENVY. congrats you are running a 3.4 with 12* of timing while I am on a stock pulley and maxing out the timing and robbing less hp from the motor to spin it and reducing the heat produced also. I will say right now that I bet a 3.4 on a reduced timing or stock timing tune would run at least a .1 slower then a similar modded 3.8 car with max timing tune.
I will continue posting about amanda's car and what happens when it is no longer stock which will mean a u bend delete and a newer style TB and muffler to reduce the restriction factory put in place along with a smoothed front manifold.

[PDXGTP]

How to begin.

Probabely the reason nobody has posted on this write up is because its hard to make any conclusion from what you've said so far.

If... you buy HP Tuners, spend the money for what ever it takes to justify it to your self and or your friends that are helping to pay for it... get the MPVI-Pro only. trust me, yes, you do want the A/D inputs & outputs.

Any stock L67 or L32 should average 16~19 in town and 28~33 on the hwy if... you reset milage computer thingy.

What I'm concerned about is you changing the MAF to get better milage, the obvious way to get better milage is to cut back fuel, which is of course making the car run more lean which is not good.
It would be much safer and easier to just set the stoitch value to 15.7 and call it a day. This way the AF mixture is leaner but still in a safe zone to operate a GM motor at part throttle. Because you set the stoich value overall the computer will keep this AF mixture at all part throttle non PE mode driving.
Do not decrease the MAF values anywhere above 7000Hz or be prepared to pay the piper if you get on it on a hot day. The MAF values basically are the calibration for the fuel injectors but really critical in PE mode. Yes of course you have commanded AFR but the MAF is the point of calibration.

Some people have written lessons learned on tuning, I have a few myself, I'd strongly suggest finding and using them.

I apologize if I sound harsh but it sounded like your not an advanced tuner based on some of the comments you made, I'm just looking out for you and like I mentioned in the beginning, I think nobody even knows how to reply to your initial post.

Good luck.

[Allmachtige]

I don't understand this post. Are you for or against tuning?

I'm not sure what your argument is...if there is one.

Tuning is good...yes....

[PDXGTP]

I don't understand this post. Are you for or against tuning?
I'm not sure what your argument is...if there is one.
Tuning is good...yes....

Maybe he's having a passive agressive argument with his alt personality.

[viper8907]

The way I understand it, he's trying to make a couple different points

1. You can use HPtuners to tune for mileage, and it will save you enough gas to pay for itself.

2. He is saying that you are better off maxing out the timing on a stock pulley vs running a smaller pulley at reduced timing.

I'd say he's for tuning.

Maybe I'm way off though....haha its a little confusing.

[Allmachtige]

1. You can use HPtuners to tune for mileage, and it will save you enough gas to pay for itself.

2. He is saying that you are better off maxing out the timing on a stock pulley vs running a smaller pulley at reduced timing.

Yes and yes.

[PDXGTP]

Agreed..
He posted the same thing on bpro and several people jumped on board.

Its still not much to debate if its accurate.. if it true, then its true. then what?

Buy a tuner and have fun...

[SuperSLE]

Yes, fun, but very frustrating at times.

[PDXGTP]

Yes, fun, but very frustrating at times.

Only if you have that DHP thingy..

Kidding,

[SuperSLE]

True

[Archon]

I'm curious as to why the poor mileage to begin with. My friend's totally stock 00 SSEi easily got 32 mpg on a trip back from Detroit, with the car loaded down.

[gigolo]

Maybe he's having a passive agressive argument with his alt personality.

well I was posting this as this is a debate on another forum that u should buy pretuned pcms instead of a tuner since the pretuned are from respectable sources. now I thought the ppl here would find the #s interesting like I had once it was broke down. but once again I post something here and all it is is laughed at. well if you guys think it is so funny then I wont waste my time with this board anymore. I have lurked and kept my mouth shut on things that were questionable but if this is what you all think of something I put effort into then good bye. I will go somewhere where my thoughts and work are appreciated

[Allmachtige]

Maybe he's having a passive agressive argument with his alt personality.

well I was posting this as this is a debate on another forum that u should buy pretuned pcms instead of a tuner since the pretuned are from respectable sources. now I thought the ppl here would find the #s interesting like I had once it was broke down. but once again I post something here and all it is is laughed at. well if you guys think it is so funny then I wont waste my time with this board anymore. I have lurked and kept my mouth shut on things that were questionable but if this is what you all think of something I put effort into then good bye. I will go somewhere where my thoughts and work are appreciated

Grow a pair. Everyone here is agreeing with you so it's confusing how you're taking offense to anything.

Anyway, pretuned PCM's can be more economical for people over the purchase of a tuner because a.) tuning software is expensive and b.) its a time consuming process. But those of us who do tune and are nearby to other members can assist with any tuning desires based on previous experience.

Tuning > Preburned PCM's any day.

[bonnevillain]

In my experience i would take stock over preburned. Unless you have the ability to monitor the live data and make sure the preburned PCM is working properly, i would be hesitant to put in anything that alters timing or fueling.

[PDXGTP]

Its ok Kyle, he prob took exception to my first post because the second post wasn't intended to be taken into serious consideration.

Ok, fine gigolo, on with the debate.

I think your "math" data is flawed.
If your car gets 23. whatever mpg.. something is wrong.
If you have an in town average and you have a hwy average they should be somewhere in the area suggested in my first post.

Fix your car then re-open the debate.
Or...
Come back and tell us truthfully that your data was "slightly" flawed because it was not captured and reported to you correctly.. or something.
again, if you got 23 mpg, something was broke.

I was also suprised that nobody on B-pro called out on you too, they just jumped in with their own milage story and Rocket 98 was the only post that followed your thought but no debate.. we... offered you the debate you were asking for.

instead of getting mad at us you should be saying thanks, good point, at least you'll take it into consideration... nope, that would also kill the edbate.

anyway....

If you took offense to my comments, I apologize, I had no intention of being an ass, just expect that if you post a vague comment on a forum, someone is going to call out on your comments. That was the point of your post right? correct me if I'm wrong here.

Later,

[gigolo]

Its ok Kyle, he prob took exception to my first post because the second post wasn't intended to be taken into serious consideration.

Ok, fine gigolo, on with the debate.

I think your "math" data is flawed.
If your car gets 23. whatever mpg.. something is wrong.
If you have an in town average and you have a hwy average they should be somewhere in the area suggested in my first post.

Fix your car then re-open the debate.
Or...
Come back and tell us truthfully that your data was "slightly" flawed because it was not captured and reported to you correctly.. or something.
again, if you got 23 mpg, something was broke.

I was also suprised that nobody on B-pro called out on you too, they just jumped in with their own milage story and Rocket 98 was the only post that followed your thought but no debate.. we... offered you the debate you were asking for.

instead of getting mad at us you should be saying thanks, good point, at least you'll take it into consideration... nope, that would also kill the edbate.

anyway....

If you took offense to my comments, I apologize, I had no intention of being an ass, just expect that if you post a vague comment on a forum, someone is going to call out on your comments. That was the point of your post right? correct me if I'm wrong here.

Later,

you can think my math is flawed all you want but if you haven't studied geography I live at 6k ft in cheyenne wy if you want to look it up be my guest. it is a 2k climb either going out of town or coming in. hell if you don't know laramie which is 55 miles away sits at 7200 ft with a mtn pass that is well over 8k. and then ft collins which is 50 miles south sits at 4k ft which means on the way there it is a slow descent into town but on the way back it is all up hill. now you can say that my math is flawed but this data is from a month of daily driving mostly highway and and round trip from hastings NE to cheyenne wy. if you want to look it up you can but I will tell you that it is a 4k difference in altitude.
now Are you guys ready for the biggest thing this is the corn belt 100% of our premium is ethanol enriched we are not so lucky as to get to dine on that 93 or whatever the hell you guys use at lower alt.
now if you wanna say that my math is flawed then explain how my 26k stock regal could only muster on avg 25 to 27 strictly highway when I bought it. now I could go on but I am sorry that my "math doesn't fit into your flat land math would like. like it or not not every car will do what the epa rated them at.
I would be willing to bet if I drove the same way as u in a brand new stock g8 that the mileage here would be lower then your low land mileage due to the simple physics of oxygen content in the air and load based on driving conditions. You can say it is a broken pos but who r u to judge. hell I am helping a guy with a stock bonne and he doesn't do much better then 25 either in fact right now he is avg 19.3 mpg so I guess his is a broken pos too.

thought I would post this for the full board to see now go ahead and crucify my math just like you said I was a fool for what I was doing to the green car but after all isnt modding about accepting new ideas and trying to find a better solution. I guess I will be the oddball bastard that thinks outside the box on this site.

BTW I do ALL my own work so if you wanna say that I am going about it al;l the wrong way well at least I did it and didn't pay someone to do what with a little bit of research and guidance anyone could do if they just tried and took it step by step. ( no that wasn't aimed at you PDXgtp I know you do your own work). Besides which is more satisfying learning something that you didn't know before and seeing the fruits of your labor or forking over cash to billy bob and hoping he did it right and that you got a good product. IDK about the rest of u but doing things yourself gives a heck of alot better feeling then the other choice.

[petraman]

Greg, chill.

You're taking this the wrong way. They're not accusing you of not knowing what you're talking about or anything, they just wanted to make some points that you could use to make sure that you're getting the right data. I don't mean to point fingers, but you were sort of the one that came in guns blazing with that second post. I know the other forum has a much more different feel than this one, but with us, you're going to get the facts, and if you ask for a debate (which you did, in the title), you're going to get one. I just don't think you were expecting it. Now you're a good guy, Greg, and I don't want you to think I'm trying to attack you or anything. Honestly, I'm just trying to put things in perspective

[PDXGTP]

Hello Gigolo,
I wanted to thank you for the PM, I forgot to tell you that the board software changed one of your words, now its called *fook* reminds me of the Austin Powers movie, Gold Member, with the two Japanese girls, fook me, fook you..

Seriously, I sent you a sencere apology.
I admit I was an ass.
Can I blamemy wife? honestly she didn't have anything to do with it either.

You hold good points that I admit were not easy for me to pick up on, some times I'm pretty *dang* slow.
I still don't get the milage part but a 6k' elevation might have something to do with it.
another thing you might find interesting, my GTP gets a best 25.9 on the hwy. but I have 3:69 gears... my bad. Before I swapped the gears I got 32~33 on "flat-land" hwy.

Anyway, on with the debate.

I'm still concerned that you leaned the car out too much. seriously.

[gigolo]

Greg, chill.

You're taking this the wrong way. They're not accusing you of not knowing what you're talking about or anything, they just wanted to make some points that you could use to make sure that you're getting the right data. I don't mean to point fingers, but you were sort of the one that came in guns blazing with that second post. I know the other forum has a much more different feel than this one, but with us, you're going to get the facts, and if you ask for a debate (which you did, in the title), you're going to get one. I just don't think you were expecting it. Now you're a good guy, Greg, and I don't want you to think I'm trying to attack you or anything. Honestly, I'm just trying to put things in perspective

fine the title is changed to be less "aggressive"

now I spent 2 hrs working on this and think all this over one night at work ( slow night) prolly spent another 30 min typing it and getting the wording right. all for ppl to say it is wrong just because x or y or z person had something different, fine but I am presenting one car as a case study that I am slowly in the process of using as a base line to prove the validity of each mod as added. I wasn't going to say that since it was going to be a diff thread based soley off the changes made and the results netted. not that most of the mods done to the car would directly affect the h body crowd but i was going to show a general progression as the care got little things that I saw that gm did to restrict power on the 98 model like noted in the first post. people always say get a base line get a baseline well this is my base line like it or not the numbers never lie. now could the car use a couple small things but "according to gm they are not "due" for another 10k or so".
I am using this car as the general rule for a routinely maintained vehicle not the anally maintained like my cars.
I will also be trying diff styles of intake to see if one proves better then the other.
I will be adding a 3 in DP to reduce restriction all while remaining on a stock pulley
I will be changing to the offset inlet muffler setup instead of the side inlet like currently is on it
I will also change to the 99+ tb and see what net gains there are there.

now if you guys don't want to see the transformation and data that will back it up I won't bother with this site since I know other sites will find the real world data intriguing as I will too.
so in short you can think my math is skewed but it is simply an example that I am providing. How ever this example shows us clearly the true benefit of a tuner setup and that is truly the intent was to show the blatent difference.

Hello Gigolo,
I wanted to thank you for the PM, I forgot to tell you that the board software changed one of your words, now its called *fook* reminds me of the Austin Powers movie, Gold Member, with the two Japanese girls, fook me, fook you..

Seriously, I sent you a sencere apology.
I admit I was an ass.
Can I blamemy wife? honestly she didn't have anything to do with it either.

You hold good points that I admit were not easy for me to pick up on, some times I'm pretty *dang* slow.
I still don't get the milage part but a 6k' elevation might have something to do with it.
another thing you might find interesting, my GTP gets a best 25.9 on the hwy. but I have 3:69 gears... my bad. Before I swapped the gears I got 32~33 on "flat-land" hwy.

Anyway, on with the debate.

I'm still concerned that you leaned the car out too much. seriously.

actually in alot of areas I added fuel but it was to the point it was so lean factory that it was running like crapp I added the fuel and brought the +12s closer into 0 and it was much happier which I could only conclude is that it was running the timing from the "low octane timing table" since it was seeing it as such a low quality mix. now it appears that it is reading from the high octane table thus bringing the mileage into line and running 40* of timing on cruise. so for those of you that doubt the numbers there is my best educated guess as to what was happening and it falls completely with in the realms of logic.
and truely if you had wanted a technical explanation you shopuld just asked instead instead of attacking the research i posted, I would have spelled it out just like this if you would have said tell us why

[Allmachtige]

Please stop being hostile. No one here is trying to start a flame, but some of your wording can come off that way.

Just about all 3800 tunes come very lean from the factory, so you got me thinking about how your car was defaulting to the low octane table. Interesting because I was at positive 14 LTFT's when I was stock, but never paid attention to timing back then. Now that you are back up to 40* of timing I'd expect that you get much better mileage.