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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:59 pm 
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This car isn't a 3800, but I was hoping for a little advice.

My next door neighbor's 89 Firebird stalls out at stop lights unless the RPM's are maintained with the accelerator. It's OBD 1 and right now we don't have the reader. The voltmeter drops down to 10 or 11 volts or less and the motor chugs and coughs. It doesn't do this all the time, but is happening more lately. My original thought was it was the alternator.

Any ideas?

Thanks, Kris

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Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:12 pm 
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The low voltage is likely because the engine speed dips so low that the alternator doesn't output much. That is, unless the voltage drop happens before the sputtering.

I'd suspect vacuum leaks, goofy MAF, or low fuel pressure.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:46 pm 
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If it is not throwing a code and otherwise runs OK, I would check battery voltage and alternator output as a starting point, though it's probably a symptom instead of the ailment.

The thin-film MAF used on the MPFI 2.8L is pretty reliable, as is the HEI ignition system. Before going hog wild on anything, I'd go through the regular maintenance items: All the Filters, PCV, clean the TB and IAC, check the plugs and wires, Hook up a scan tool to it and check the sensors while it is running.

Other things to check.. The fast idle kicker switches on the A/C system and Power Steering. If the engine load is high and the fast idle isn't coming in, then the engine can drop it's idle speed so low that it quits.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:27 pm 
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Also check the solenoid on top of the charcoal canister!!!
I spent 1 1/2 years trying to figure out why I was having idle problems on my 89 Beretta GT with the 2.8. Found out that he solenoid on top of the canister went bad and was leaving the tank vent port open all the time...letting more fumes into the intake... making it run richer than it was supposed to...making it idle low and rough and sometimes stalling if I had the a/c on.

check it out...

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:06 pm 
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We're going to take a closer look at it tonight, maybe get the scanner. I am glad I didn't go get a wrecker alternator for him-thanks.

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2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

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Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:06 am 
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We got an OBD1 code 32 EGR Circuit. I removed the valve and it cleaned it with a brush. The valve worked fine when I drew on the vacuum input port. Put it back on and got the same code. We then went through the code reset procedure as given by the scanner (i.e., pulled ECM fuse for 20 seconds( does it matter if its out longer than 20 sec?) and still got code 32. Checked for loose or degraded vacuum hoses- all good. I know the battery cable contacts are good as we thoroughly cleaned and tightened them 3 weeks ago. He's got the scanner in his car to use if it develops the problem again. The wires and the plugs tomorrow. Anything else before we buy an $84 EGR Valve? Checking Fuel pressure would be easy, but I don't know what spec is for an 89 2.8 firebird.

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2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:11 am 
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spoiledred94 wrote:
Anything else before we buy an $84 EGR Valve?


Ok, EGR Basics on the VIN S motor... The EGR valve is simple vac operated valve, so if the valve went up and down while you were putting vac on it, then the valve itself is fine.

The EGR Solenoid (little can shaped gizmo on a bracket with wires and vac lines..on the passenger side valve cover) gets a signal from the ECM which opens and closes a valve inside it to send vac signal to the actual EGR valve. So it blends both the electronic signals from the ECM with the vac signal from the intake manifold to produce the desired amount of exhaust gas recirculating into the manifold. The EGR Solenoid also gives electrical feedback to the ECM to say the vac signal going to the EGR Valve is present.

Now, you are getting a hard code 32. That means the ECM ordered the EGR Solenoid to put vac into the line to the EGR valve (using pins A & B on the solenoid connector) , but didn't see any reply signal from the on/off switch in the solenoid ( pins C & D ). That either means there's no vac getting to the solenoid, a break in the lines that is leaking vac out between the solenoid and the EGR Valve, or a busted EGR Solenoid.

Knowing the predisposition of 20 year old heat soaked plastic to break...you probably have a busted vac line. Otherwise, the EGR Solenoid is dead...not the actual valve.

Quick test that fits the symptoms (stalling at idle with a code 32)... unplug the EGR solenoid from the electrical harness, and disconnect the two vac lines leading up to it. Put a vac pump on the connection that went to the manifold vac...if you hear hissing on the other vac fitting, then the solenoid is stuck in the open position...trashcan time. With the solenoid valve stuck open, the EGR valve is constantly being fed vac, so it is always feeding exhaust gasses back into the manifold, even when it is not supposed to.

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Bye Bye 1990 Bonneville LE... Now it belongs to my daughter
In the Garage: 2009 Subaru Outback, 1987 Camaro, 2006 SV650S, 1995 Regal 182 "ASANAGI", 1962 Ford Galaxie 500, 1995 Ford F150 XL 4WD, 1953 Farmall Cub


Last edited by clm2112 on Wed May 06, 2009 11:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:46 am 
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I removed what I think was EGR solenoid and disconnected the vac line from it to the EGR valve. It wasn't just like two vac connections to the solenoid. Each of the two vac ports on the solenoid branched into several more. The electrical connector I couldn't locate. The TWO wires that came out of it snaked up into an unreachable and unseeable area. The wires were directly connected to the solenoid-no detachable connector. I drew on the the other port and felt it pull through. It was heavily restricted so I couldn't tell where the inlet was. If I drew on the EGR valve hose of the solenoid, there was flow. My vac pump would not hold any vac when I attached it the vac input port on the solenoid. I tried removing all the hoses but the hard vac lines were brittle and frail and the rubber lines were dried and hard. I broke a few. After that we just did the pug wires. Checked for the code 32 and it was there. We went through the ECU clearing process correctly for the first time and then checked for codes. The EGR 32 code was gone, but tnow there are 2 more codes. #24 Vehicle speed sensor and #34 MAP (Manifold absolute pressure) signal low. Well we quit there for a couple days

_________________
2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:57 am 
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Today his LR tire went flat and then his trunk/rear hatch wouldn't open :(

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2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:40 pm 
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spoiledred94 wrote:
then his trunk/rear hatch wouldn't open :(


Not uncommon for 3rd Gen F-Bodies. The motorized hatch latch fails regularly. On my '87 I removed most of it then pinned the sliding rack in place with bolts so that it only opens with the key. (I would have prefered the earlier manual latch that works like the typical GM trunk latch, but the stamped sheetmetal panel that serves as the mount would need cut out and replaced...too much work when a pair of bolts works.)

You might be able to ressurect it with some aerosol cleaner if it is just an electrical contact issue. Otherwise, the nylon gears get broken from repeated slamming and the entire assembly is trash. It's one of those things that needs addressed, because the hatch will not seal right and you end up with water soaked carpets.

If you have the EGR vac plumbing torn apart, then the MAP error is normal. The VSS signal generator is in one of two places: On the transmission (down at the tailshaft of the transmission on the driver's side, just ahead of the torque arm bracket.) Or if there is just a cable comming out of the transmission, then on the back of the instrument panel there's an optical sensor & buffer circuit (it reads the cable driven rotor cup that operates the speedometer needle.) I'd pass on fixing that and focus on the vac issues you are having.

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Bye Bye 1990 Bonneville LE... Now it belongs to my daughter
In the Garage: 2009 Subaru Outback, 1987 Camaro, 2006 SV650S, 1995 Regal 182 "ASANAGI", 1962 Ford Galaxie 500, 1995 Ford F150 XL 4WD, 1953 Farmall Cub


Last edited by clm2112 on Fri May 08, 2009 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:09 am 
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If I can work backwards from your post clm 2112 (are you one of the many few RUSH fans?) I can forget the VSS if the sensor is not on the tail housing, because, if it was behind the instrument panel then that sensor would not cause a rough idle problem even if it was malfunctioning.

The EGR vac lines were indeed torn apart but to the best of my knowledge they were all put back correctly with original tubing and fittings or new vac line in place of the fitting and lines. We haven't done a thing on it since. I have to replace those exact fittings with whole brand new lines. I was really being rushed and I smart from not saying back off, ya know. Anyway, when that's done then we'll focus on the MAP sensor or VSS if indicated as above.

I'll try lube the lock right away and let it sit for awhile before we give up and pull the interior tail panel and see what's catching up the latch. I'd guess for sure the bolting of the sliding rack will be much preferable than the tedious task of cutting the plate. I know he's a bit sore over some of the mistakes I made in his behalf. Nevertheless I 'd say we're going to finish the job :???:

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2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:52 am 
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spoiledred94 wrote:
I can forget the VSS if the sensor is not on the tail housing, because, if it was behind the instrument panel then that sensor would not cause a rough idle problem even if it was malfunctioning.


You can ignore the VSS for the moment, regardless of where the sensor is physically, because it doesn't effect the engines ability to hold idle. VSS on these cars is primarily for lockup of the torque converter clutch and to provide a reference signal for the Cruise Control module. The ECM on these cars is simple enough to not need that signal to do the job of keeping the motor running.

All the vac lines on the engine are suspect. Since you found out first hand how easy the plastic lines are to break, best bet is to get an assortment of small vac hose from the parts store and reconnect the whole mess without the hard plastic lines (you can't get that part as a replacement.) It's a pain in the butt, but the vac system has got to work right for the motor to run smoothly under all conditions.

Looking at the vac system, there are only a couple of circuits. You've got the two big diameter ones that feed the brake booster and the PCV system. Then you have a bunch of small diameter ones that feed the body of the car, the EGR valve, fuel pressure regulator, vapor canister, and MAP sensor. That's about it. If the EGR solenoid is leaking and can't hold a vac on it's inlet, then replace it otherwise it will activate the EGR valve all the time the engine is running at idle or decelleration.

Based on what you are describing, you found part of the EGR solenoid. Now follow those two black wires to the module they are hooked up to. That will be the controller for it and it will have the WeatherPak connector on it that hooks up to the engine harness. The whole thing is considered one part. ( There are different styles of solenoids used, because the Carb, TBI, MPFI, and TPI all had different ways of doing the EGR. They are not interchangable because they provide feedback in differnt ways. )

Once you have erradicated all the vac leaks, you'll probably be down to just the VSS signal problem.

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Bye Bye 1990 Bonneville LE... Now it belongs to my daughter
In the Garage: 2009 Subaru Outback, 1987 Camaro, 2006 SV650S, 1995 Regal 182 "ASANAGI", 1962 Ford Galaxie 500, 1995 Ford F150 XL 4WD, 1953 Farmall Cub


Last edited by clm2112 on Sun May 10, 2009 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:52 pm 
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There may be some confusion here about the VSS. I found it where you said it would be (the tail shaft of the trans), but I don't think there is a torque converter involved because it's a manual trans.

Nevertheless we disconnected the vss and that made no change in the rough Idle. Same with the MAP/MAF (some literature say that on the 89 firebird 2.8 it's a MAP and some says it's a MAF). Also the same with the TPS. He was getting a service engine soon light and the scanner indicated TPS, MAF and VSS errors. We cleared the codes by pulling the ECM fuse. After starting it back up it ran noticeably better. The idle picked up and was steady. Then for a1/2 minute it ran very steady and the idle was a bit fast IMO. It basically then dropped down to a little rough and stayed there

We then replaced the plugs (the wires and air filtertwo days ago) . The old ones looked fine if not just a bit too hot ( a touch of whitish gray dust and the electrode insulators were stark white.)

Test drive showed a bit quicker response, but there was something holding the engine back. Some missing and or fuel shortage. Upon hitting cruising speed and revs, the engine sounded good and ran well.

I got up this morning and his car is sitting there and he's gone. So I am guessing it wouldn't start :bstooges:

If he's amenable I'll check the VAC lines tonight. There is a module hooked into the intake manifold with no wires, but with two hard small vac line going into it. Do you know what that is?

Thanks for the suggestions. He kinda gets frustrated when repairs don't help. He isn't spending much money so far. Last we checked at idle and road tests there were no trouble codes. One other thing, the problem has always been much worse when the ambient temperature is cold (like mornings.)

We also added 2 bottles of Lucas Fuel Injector Cleaner and a bottle of STP Water Remover/ Fuel System Cleaner to his 5 gallons of gas.

I should say that over the years since he bought it 94 that service has been sparse. Only replacing parts when absolutely necessary.

It's good you guys are there, right or wrong it's good you guys are there,

_________________
2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


Last edited by spoiledred94 on Mon May 11, 2009 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:43 am 
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Well last night we fixed the problem and it ran pretty great. Then after letting it idle for 15 min we shut it off and cleared the codes and then it would not even turn over at all. No starter action period. Just the "key on" dash lights.


Earlier I found a very bad vac leak , we fixed that and when we pulled the connector from the MAF it ran great. Turned out that the air intake ducting downstream from the MAF was separated and open. We fixed that, she ran great, and like I said after a long idle, shut down and clearing the codes, that were left over from pulling connectors from sensors she wouldn't even pop out the pinion gear on the starter.

We checked all the fuses and it was dark so we quit. I am picking up the Chilton today hoping to find another fuse box.

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2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:10 am 
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Hey! It's running pretty nice. Repairing the air intake ducting leak fixed the rough idle and the no start was a badly installed VATS bypass resistor his shop did. She starts right up and runs pretty good. He says better than it has for a year or more. We fixed some vac leaks and cleaned his cap and rotor contacts as well as new plugs and wires and air filter. Half way through the test drive we noticed that at stop lights the idle pulses (i.e., throbs) from about 500 up to about 1100 RPM's every couple seconds.

thanks for your help

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2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:53 am 
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JUst quickly we were no codes at all for over a week along with the same problem. Roughish idle and hesitating and rough is idle up and little over 2000 RPM's.


Today we cleaned and fixed the brand new MAF ducting which had come apart, checked and then and confirmed TPS voltage as well. We decided not to do the fuel pressure check today and the fuel pressure regulator turned out to be a non checkable or adjustable unit. So we pulled the IAC and guess what: It was cruddy dirty and we cleaned it up as far as the outer goes. The manual indicates a max length of the pintle to be 1 1/8" and it was just that. There is also a vac operated device at the front of the engine and next to the intake manifold that had broke off where someone glued it. we just re-epoxyed it because the there was a no more money standpoint. After we put everything back and if it's not it we'll check the fuel pressure and then he's taking it to a shop.

I've got a trans to pull and rework in the next week and will essentially wash my hands of it. The IAC is it imho. I am holding out for a completed job as of tomorrow. We'll see tomorrow. Thanks for your help.

_________________
2001 Bonneville SSEi. 1598xx mi.
great car. Wrecked

ImageImage
Burnt Bonny.

Note if you pull the injectors to obserbe fuel delivery...make sure you leave the plugs in and disconnect the ign. Believe me


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