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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:37 pm 
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Not good news. PCM didn't fix it, but since it's a stock PCM, it's now reporting codes which can help us troubleshoot. Lots going on, one of us will update. They're taking a break from troubleshooting to check into the hotel, then back to the phones.

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Yikes. We need to do a conference call or something, lol.

What are the codes?

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:15 pm 
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Do you need me to man the phones?

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Left at 2 am and crrently passing Lincoln Nebraska. Should get to the car around 9 pm local time.[url][/url]

Woo, Lincoln! You passed my town.

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:59 pm 
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PRD2BDF wrote:
Do you need me to man the phones?


Nice one Cody. Can you hear me now? ;)

With the new PCM now logging codes, we could narrow it down a little better, but we were already looking at something goofy on #6 last week anyway. It's reporting random misfires on 4 and 6, as well as P1631 Theft Deterrent Start Enable Signal Not Correct, which I assume is due to the donor PCM not recognizing the VATS module, but the car starts and runs fine other than 4 and 6. #6 is fuel fouling. 2 and 4 plug wires were swapped, 4 and 6 still misfired. 6 and 3 plugs were swapped, 4 and 6 misfires remained. 1/4 and 2/5 coils were also swapped with no change.

Due to the fact that he has no fuel pressure gauge with him, I had him disconnect the vac line to the FPR to command higher mechanical pressure in the rail on the off chance it was low, no change. Last week he did a 'thumb comparison' compression check between 3 and 6, both felt the same as far as he could tell. Oil and coolant are not mixing, all fluids look normal.

During troubleshooting, he noted that when he disconnected the wire from the #6 coil terminal, the idle didn't change. When he disconnected the #4 wire from the coil, the idle seemed to actually IMPROVE a little. I asked him to confirm that in the morning and try to borrow a fuel pressure gauge at a local auto parts store first thing in the morning before they decide to tow the car home to Oregon from Bum-fuk freaking Wyoming.

Very odd stuff here, with serious undertones of doom that I'm not willing to accept yet. It hasn't slipped past me that 4 and 6 are adjacent cylinders, but Matt confirmed they are stock L32 head gaskets and heads, OEM from the factory. When he L32'd, he kept the block and heads intact, and only swapped in the cam.

This one is most definitely not your run-of-the-mill misfire issue, complicated by the fact that he has few tools to troubleshoot with in Laramie.

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:11 am 
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Couldn't be the ICM, could it? I know it's unlikely, but idk. Would a parts store let you test it in the lot and buy/return it depending on if it works or not? I suppose you're not in the lot of a parts store however...

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:20 am 
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Couldn't be the ICM, could it?
I ran into that problem on my son's '99 Grand Prix. Misfire on #4. Did the usual swaps of wires and coils, with no improvement. Swapped in another ICM and the problem disappeared. From the way I understand the ICM works, it shouldn't happen that way. But, it did. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:44 am 
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Funny, Dick. We were just talking about the possibility, and how odd it would be if that was the problem, as it shouldn't. But the way it's acting, something might be goofy in there.

He found a big wrecker 1.5 miles from the hotel.

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PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers


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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:26 am 
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Well it's not the coils, it's not the plugs or wires, it's not the PCM. ICM pretty much has spark on lockdown, and if something is FUBAR internally to the ICM, all kinds of weird things happen.

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Think about it. You’re tooling down the road in your Prius, knowing full-well that this thing being green is as big a sham as federally mandated ethanol-enriched gas, Russia pulling out of Ukraine, and Obamacare.


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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:43 am 
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However, the way the ICM is designed to work, it SHOULDN'T be able to affect 4 and 6 like that. That's why we avoided it until the end of the troubleshooting. I can assure you that anyone that has been deep into the ICM and how it works on this Forum will be very surprised if this ends up fixing the car. The ICM itself doesn't even command the spark signal above 400 rpms (first few seconds of starting). The PCM does. True, the signals pass through the ICM still, but it's a solid-state device that doesn't lend it's design to intermittent electrical problems. It's either good or not.

Nevertheless, Matt is going to try one this morning. If that fails, the tentative plan is to unplug injector #6, pull the #6 plug and wire, and 5-cylinder the car home. #4 picks up spark and misfires go away as the car throttles up, so most of the drive he should have a good solid 95% or more of 5 cylinders.

He also noticed a repair shop across from his hotel at zero:dark:30 last night, and is going to try to borrow a compression gauge and fuel pressure tester this morning. Fuel pressure, compression, and ICM are quite literally the only things we haven't been able to check/test or rule out yet, and would leave (if all were good) only the possibility of something mechanical internally.

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PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers


Last edited by willwren on Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:56 am 
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We are praying for a successful outcome...we still remember watching Echo go through this with his car at our house and it was a very stessful and worrysome time for all. This forum and the people involved are amazing and you should all feel very proud of what you do for all of us Bonneville addicts!! Keep your chin up Matt as you know everyone is behind you 1000% (no that was not an extra 0 by mistake)!!!

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Having car trouble away from home just plain sucks. Good luck fixing this.
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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:14 pm 
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ICM did not solve the problem. Working on Plan G......or H? I've lost track.

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Is that the plan where they stuff a trailer under it, and drag it back?

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Not exactly. More complicated and time consuming than that.

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PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers


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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:11 pm 
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- Bad (stuck or leaky) injector on the #6? check injector harness wiring too.
- Balancer hasn't lost major chunks?

The imbalance is engine speed related, not vehicle speed dependent, right?

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Ok, plan whatever!

Renting a car for a one way trip home. Their airport is small, but has free long term parking. The Rubber chicken will be left and I will return with the Suburban and a tow dolly to drag it home.

The latest findings are that when I disable cylinder #6 by pulling the plug and injector connection, the car would not even start.

When I did the same to #4 it would start and run a little better, but still showed misfires on #4 and #6.

Not sure what else to do when all my tools are at home. The garage across the street did not want to loan me a FP gauge or comp gauge unless I brought the car to them. By the look of the place and the vehicles around there, they were not gonna touch the chicken.

The journey continues.


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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:14 pm 
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That really sucks Matt. I hope it's nothing too serious...

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Sirius wrote:
Think about it. You’re tooling down the road in your Prius, knowing full-well that this thing being green is as big a sham as federally mandated ethanol-enriched gas, Russia pulling out of Ukraine, and Obamacare.


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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:18 pm 
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I've been searching for any "off the wall" solutions for similar problems. Strangest one I found was a report of a bad #1 plug wire killing all of the even cylinders. :dontknow:

Other things, most probably checked were: MAF, EGR, and case learn (should throw P1336).

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 Post subject: Re: URGENT!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:40 pm 
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I just did the case learn. It clears the misfires, until I accelerate. They stay there when idle comes back, but if i tap the accelerator they go away again. Also getting a code P0336 (crank position sensor) regularly and a P0102 randomly (due to MAF unplugged).

I have not looked them up yet.

Edited for code info.


Last edited by myfirstbonnie on Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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