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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:00 am 
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Year and Trim: 1996 Bonneville SSEi
- Stock Is A Bad Word -
So I'm accelerating (merging) onto the freeway tonight, when a UPS truck, going entirely too fast, is going to drive up my ass - I floor it.
I, expecting the kick-down and +boost, hear the transmission let go, as though it were going to down-shift, and then the engine rev, but completely out of gear. That is to say, on an automatic, it sounded as though I missed a shift. Though I did rev up fairly high, I didn't hit redline. The tranny then hits, kicks down, I make some rubber-going-faster-than-pavement-noise for about 1.5 seconds, and everything is fine.
I'm confident that his slowing down is what saved my bumper.
I was going about 25-35mph before I floored it.
I haven't driven it since about 1/2 mile after this happened (as that is where I live.)

My Question:
Is this a sign that my tranny is going?
The last time this happened (about four months ago under similar conditions), I threw a code that corrected itself after about three weeks. I thought it had something to do with my LIM issue at the time, so I didn't pay it any mind. No code tonight.

Should I be concerned?
Any ideas?
Thanks.

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3.6, FWI, 1 Range Cooler, and Energy Endlinks couldn't prevent a spun bearing.


Last edited by Mike Sessei on Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:51 pm 
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Year and Trim: 1996 Bonneville SSEi
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Made two trips about 4 miles each today with no further issues.
Everything seems as it was before last night.
Though, I do recall a few instances over the past couple of months of having, every now and then, a slipping clutch. Nothing fantastic, but just the sensation that all of the ponies produced were not ending up at the wheels. Of course, I would imagine that were this the case, I wouldn't be able to break traction like I did last night.
Having only had vehicles with manual transmissions in the past, I'm not really familiar with automatics, how they age, or what to keep an eye out for that may be a sign of trouble down the road. Perhaps GM designed this characteristic into the vehicle to scare the crap out of me.

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3.6, FWI, 1 Range Cooler, and Energy Endlinks couldn't prevent a spun bearing.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:55 pm 
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When is the last time the transmission fluid was changed (via drain -or- flush)?
How about the filter?
What is the current color and clarity of your transmission fluid?
Do your shifts normally feel too soft?
What is your current mileage?

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Now: '15 Toyota Prius III | 134 hp 2ZR-FXE | Silver | 36k
Now: '03 Honda CR-V AWD | Slow 4-Cylinder | Dirt | 180k

Then: '07 Ford Fusion SEL | 221hp Gen I VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Tungsten Silver | 150k
Then: '99 Toyota Avalon XL | 200hp 1MZ-FE 3.0 V6 | Diamond White | 189k | Sold: July 2015
Then: '11 Ford Fusion SEL | 240hp Gen II VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Ingot Silver | 84k | Totaled: Oct 23 '14 (Rear-Ended)
Then: '96 Buick Park Avenue Ultra | 240hp Series II L67 | Medium Dark Lichen | Bought: JAN 11 @ 135k | Accident: FEB 3 '12 | Crushed: MAR 1 '13 @ 153K
Then: '98 Pontiac Bonneville SSE | 205hp Series II 3800 L36 | Topaz Firemist | Bought: NOV '09 @ 74k | Accident: MAY 28 '10 | Crushed: MAR 15 '11 @ 84k
Then: '93 Pontiac Bonneville SE | 170hp Series I 3800 L27 | Dark Yellow Green | Bought: JULY '07 @ 92k | Sold: JULY '12 @ 118k
Then: '89 Pontiac Bonneville LE | 165hp 3800 LN3 | Medium Garnet Red | Bought: JAN '05 @ 117k | Sold: SEP 30 '07 @ 152k


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:06 pm 
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Location: SF Bay Area
Year and Trim: 1996 Bonneville SSEi
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Bought the car a little over a year ago from family member who had always taken it to the dealer for it's scheduled maintenance. So I don't know off hand about the last fluid/flter change or flush. I'll have to grab the book.
Shifts normally feel lovely - no loss of pull, over-revving or funny noises. With a slight exception of the transition into overdrive, but I believe that is a result of my personal preference. I think it, when warm, will shift into OD at too low a speed (45mph+) and wants the motor to compensate for the really low rpms (~1500) by compensating with increased psi from the blower or going into a boosted state. RPMs that low make me feel like the motor is being lugged/overworked until I get up to 65~mph.
Current mileage is just about 210k.

edit-I'll have to check out the color of the tranny fluid & get back to you.

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1996 Bonneville SSEi
- Stock Is A Bad Word -
3.6, FWI, 1 Range Cooler, and Energy Endlinks couldn't prevent a spun bearing.


Last edited by Mike Sessei on Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:28 pm 
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210k? IMO, 4t60e transmissions have between a 150k-200k mile lifespan, and I think it might be going. If you don't have the money now to fix it, I'd stay off the go-pedal and buy an adjustable tranny modulator and set that thing to high. Also, DON'T flush the transmission, no matter what anyone else says. Believe it or not, but flushing the fluid has adverse results for older transmissions. Just drain and fill.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:31 am 
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petraman wrote:
210k? IMO, 4t60e transmissions have between a 150k-200k mile lifespan, and I think it might be going. If you don't have the money now to fix it, I'd stay off the go-pedal and buy an adjustable tranny modulator and set that thing to high. Also, DON'T flush the transmission, no matter what anyone else says. Believe it or not, but flushing the fluid has adverse results for older transmissions. Just drain and fill.


:laughing3: 150-200K lifespan Muhawwwaaawwwaaah! That's funny. That is more of the exception or high end than regular service life.

On the fluid, saying flushing has adverse results is an uneducated response. The educated response is that flushing removes all the clutch material and worn out fluid. Thicker viscosity from years of neglect, and a lot of dirt/clutch material in the fluid. Combined these two keep the trans working because they tend to keep pressures high and assist in the gripping of the worn out clutch plates. New fluid is slippery and has many cleaning detergents. By cleaning a worn out clutch plate, having less pressure and no excess material in the fluid the trans appears to show further issues.

In fact, most don't flush or service the transmission until a problem appears and then w/o taking the existing problem into account blame the trans flush or service on the demise of the already failing trans.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:26 am 
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BillBoost37 wrote:
:laughing3: 150-200K lifespan Muhawwwaaawwwaaah! That's funny. That is more of the exception or high end than regular service life.


Think so huh? What do you think is the average lifespan? I'd agree that 150-175k is average.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:32 am 
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I second exactly what Bill said. If a flush were to make it fail, it more than likely would already be dead, but you might not know...not until it was put under a lot of weight, or a lot of power, such as that downshift you're posting about.

You still haven't posted on the condition of the fluid...but if you don't have the money right now to replace it, as peter said, go with an adjustable modulator....it will raise the shift pressure to prevent slip..especially useful when it's doing what you describe.

210k is an exceptional number in some eyes...however, I know people that have 350k transmissions..yes, they're slipping, but yes, they also work fine. Personally, I'd flush it...but you do what you want to do in that respect, but the modulator is recommended. (and if you think it's a huge job...it's not, its an under 5 minute job...IF that.

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Now: '15 Toyota Prius III | 134 hp 2ZR-FXE | Silver | 36k
Now: '03 Honda CR-V AWD | Slow 4-Cylinder | Dirt | 180k

Then: '07 Ford Fusion SEL | 221hp Gen I VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Tungsten Silver | 150k
Then: '99 Toyota Avalon XL | 200hp 1MZ-FE 3.0 V6 | Diamond White | 189k | Sold: July 2015
Then: '11 Ford Fusion SEL | 240hp Gen II VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Ingot Silver | 84k | Totaled: Oct 23 '14 (Rear-Ended)
Then: '96 Buick Park Avenue Ultra | 240hp Series II L67 | Medium Dark Lichen | Bought: JAN 11 @ 135k | Accident: FEB 3 '12 | Crushed: MAR 1 '13 @ 153K
Then: '98 Pontiac Bonneville SSE | 205hp Series II 3800 L36 | Topaz Firemist | Bought: NOV '09 @ 74k | Accident: MAY 28 '10 | Crushed: MAR 15 '11 @ 84k
Then: '93 Pontiac Bonneville SE | 170hp Series I 3800 L27 | Dark Yellow Green | Bought: JULY '07 @ 92k | Sold: JULY '12 @ 118k
Then: '89 Pontiac Bonneville LE | 165hp 3800 LN3 | Medium Garnet Red | Bought: JAN '05 @ 117k | Sold: SEP 30 '07 @ 152k


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:44 am 
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what are the conditions you were in when this happened?
were you in drive, overdrive, manual 2nd?
what gear was the transmission in when you went WOT?
What did it downshift to?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:54 am 
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Isn't a modulator about $50? You can buy enough cheap ATF to drain/fill 3x for $50. Wally-World ATF is your friend.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:26 pm 
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Yeah...but then he still needs the modulator... :roll: so what's the difference?

And I'm sure he can find a modulator in the neighborhood of $20

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Now: '15 Toyota Prius III | 134 hp 2ZR-FXE | Silver | 36k
Now: '03 Honda CR-V AWD | Slow 4-Cylinder | Dirt | 180k

Then: '07 Ford Fusion SEL | 221hp Gen I VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Tungsten Silver | 150k
Then: '99 Toyota Avalon XL | 200hp 1MZ-FE 3.0 V6 | Diamond White | 189k | Sold: July 2015
Then: '11 Ford Fusion SEL | 240hp Gen II VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Ingot Silver | 84k | Totaled: Oct 23 '14 (Rear-Ended)
Then: '96 Buick Park Avenue Ultra | 240hp Series II L67 | Medium Dark Lichen | Bought: JAN 11 @ 135k | Accident: FEB 3 '12 | Crushed: MAR 1 '13 @ 153K
Then: '98 Pontiac Bonneville SSE | 205hp Series II 3800 L36 | Topaz Firemist | Bought: NOV '09 @ 74k | Accident: MAY 28 '10 | Crushed: MAR 15 '11 @ 84k
Then: '93 Pontiac Bonneville SE | 170hp Series I 3800 L27 | Dark Yellow Green | Bought: JULY '07 @ 92k | Sold: JULY '12 @ 118k
Then: '89 Pontiac Bonneville LE | 165hp 3800 LN3 | Medium Garnet Red | Bought: JAN '05 @ 117k | Sold: SEP 30 '07 @ 152k


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:46 pm 
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So $50 to a modulator and new transmission fluid.

Beats the heck out of $1500 for a new transmission.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:42 pm 
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Wow - I really appreciate everyones input on this matter!
I haven't driven at all today, and have to leave for work in about 5min. I'll check the fluid condition after I get home from work tomorrow afternoon & let you all know
No, just before the holidays, I cannot afford to drop a few thousand into an anything. The modulator idea sounds like a reasonable band-aid...at a 5 minute install, it sounds like something that I would plug in-line in a wiring harness.
By new transmission, are we talking about it going to an autohaus and being rebuilt or what?
What's that which WillWren is always touting as very wise upgrades to look into if you're going to get the transmission done? Was it some kind of beefed-up 2nd gear output shaft??
Thanks again, I'll post more soon!

-dirtracr95- the conditions were posted. I was in OD. Considering I had been at a stop, I was probably in 2nd at the time, with a kickdown, presumably, into 1st.

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3.6, FWI, 1 Range Cooler, and Energy Endlinks couldn't prevent a spun bearing.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Oh yeah.
Who here has used the modulator?
Results? How long did it last/prolong the inevitable for?
Think I could find this at rock auto?
Cheers!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:21 pm 
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The Adjustable trans modulator can be bought at Advance, Autozone and the like...

What this will do is raise the line pressure to get a quicker apply of the clutches... Less slip between shifts.. Making it a more positive shift.. But you don't want a bang or thud shift... Just a quicker firmer shift...

176,000 On my tired 4T60-E and still going


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:11 pm 
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My 92 SSE had 260k on the original fluid and I never felt any funny shifts, of slipping. The only anomoly I had was a high stall in the torque converter when a line cracked and I leake out some fluid. Filled it up and never had another problem. As far as I know, the kid that bought it hasnt had any issues and I think its over 2300k now. I wasn't light on the pedal either, not that a 92 is a screamer, but i did tend to let off right as it would shift into second, felt and sounded just like a stick. Nice and firm.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:52 pm 
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Quote:
176,000 miles On my tired 4T60-E and still going


x2 for the Grizz. :wink:

Note that it came stock with a trani cooler. I have check trani temps and they do not go over 160 F. :bow:

Must be the hot running 190 F temps that the Eastern guys have to contend with that lowers their average life. :bhuh:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:19 pm 
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I just checked, 171664 miles on my original tranny *fingers crossed*

Drained/filled at 95k when I bought it(new filter), and again at 150k, both times using regular Dex III.

I drive normally, no hotroddin. So far so good.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:26 pm 
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200K and much more should be common on a 4t60e that has been used as intended, that is, driven more or less normally. But, on this site, most folks have a heavy foot, so the tranny will not last as long, and will seem like much less miles is perfectly normal. If you want to dance, you've got to pay the fiddler, as they say.
Best maintenance plan is to drop the pan and change the filter every 50K if you drive it normally. If the fluid is already burnt, just leave it, the damage is done, most likely, and fresh fluid will renew the detergent action of the fluid and will likely loosen up stuff and cause the pending failure to happen more quickly.
Flushing can also loosen stuff that would normally just stay there forever and be harmless, and why would you want to take all the grime that is nicely trapped in the filter and run it back through and (hopefully) out?
Upping the line pressure via the adjustable modulator, if it works, is masking another problem. If the tranny is not on the edge of failure, might be best to have it looked at by a competent tranny guy and see if it is a simple (and CORRECT) fix. If it is already 95% fried, well, might as well try anything - you never know..
My father in law had a bronco 2 with 300K on it, tranny fluid looked like gloss black paint, shifted like crap, barely worked. A tranny shop dropped the pan and found small chunks of metal, not shavings or "dust" - chunks. Tranny is pretty much gone, right? So, he puts a bottle of "tranny magic" that he found in the 99 cent bin at Rite-Aid, and within a week it shifted great. I kidd you not. I was astounded, as was the tranny guy. He kept it another 30K.
So, what do I know? Probably nothing!! LOL!!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:02 pm 
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in the new transmissions the computer actually will raise the line pressure as the trans wears to get more life out of it and maintain the same shifts. So by adding more line pressure via adjustable vacuum modulator you are just doing what the computers on new cars do for you

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