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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:37 pm 
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AKA: The pump inside your transmission.

I've been throwing around this idea for a while now, and the 1.4 ecotec has it, so I'm not exactly the first person to come up with this idea.

The pump inside a typical 4t60 is a variable displacement vane pump. The idea is that the output pressure is constant over a range of input RPM. The mechanism appears to be incredibly simple: A spring loaded outer eccentric ring compresses as pressure in the pump output rises, that compression moves the eccentric ring to decrease the amount of fluid the pump can flow per revolution.

The important point is that once you pick a spring rate, you have a pump that automatically adjusts it's flow rate to maintain the pressure relationship, assuming input rpm and pump load are withing a certain range.

The idea here is to use one of these pumps as an oil pump, instead of the ge-rotor pump used in the 3800. The point is to use a pump with enough capacity to maintain 40-50 psi at all times, even when the engine is sitting at idle fully heat soaked, and not have excessive drag at high RPM. The nice thing about the vane pumps in transmissions is that they seem to have a very large range for the eccentric ring, so there is potential there to completely eliminate the oil pressure bypass valve in the block (a potential contribution to low idle oil pressure).

4t6x oil pump:
Image

1.4 ecotec oil pump:
Image

3800 oil pump:
Image


The only way I can see this working out is to drive it off the belt or a dedicated electric motor. The 4t6x pump is fairly standalone the way it's packaged, and I have a few of them on hand I could play with. I might have to see what I can come up with.

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'97 Chevy Camaro - 3800, T5, T-tops, Getting ready for some major upgrades!
'05 Cadillac STS - V8, AWD, her DD
'92 Olds Trofeo - Fair weather DD
'84 GMC Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
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'92 Pontiac Bonneville SSE future project

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Sounds like you'd have to goto a dry sump type of pump driven off of another belt. The oil pumps pressure inside the engine is determined by the amount of resistance there is in the system. Essentially, larger passages (larger clearances )= lower pressure and the inverse, which is why we see higher pressure when the engine is cold. I'm personally quite happy to have a system like we have already, with a gauge. I can use it to determine the health of the engine. If you are only getting 10 psi at idle while at operating temp, you've got bigger issues than oil flow.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:46 pm 
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I'm not an engineer, just a sap who fixed people's stuff when they broke... I think their are two issues as to why something like this hasn't been used on an most mainstream engines.

1) an engine's bearing surfaces require only the level of pressure in relation to the amount of rotational force being seen on crank journals and rod journals, etc. In theory, the metal of the crank and the bearing surface should never touch. The coating of oil used between them acting as the cushion acts as a hydrodynamic device to center the journal in that bearing and allow for even distribution of force from that journal. Having 40 - 50 psi at idle might cause issues here.

2) Seals. Self-explanatory, but I suppose if it were to be engineered with this type of pump, seals could be developed to. But just throwing that out there.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Well, in theory, bearings should never wear out (ever) because you have an oil film, but they do. That's why engines have evolved from splash oiling to pressure oiling.

The specific issue I'm addressing here though stems from the bottom end rebuild. I have every intent on pulling the drivetrain on my SSEi this summer and plastigauging everything again, and comparing that to the amount of oil flow past each bearing (using my electric oil pump that primes the motor). The initial issue was certainly low oil pressure when heat soaked, but if this has to go back to a machine shop I will probably end up with a different, virgin bottom end block.

For reference, the machine shop said 10psi/1000rpm is normal, it doesn't register on the factory gauge (so the cluster dings constantly), but when I checked it after putting the turbo on it was about 6psi at idle. Prior to the need for the rebuild, it was holding 35psi at idle (~800rpm).

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Runs:
'93 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi - Twincharged, manual, and lots more! Build thread
'97 Chevy Camaro - 3800, T5, T-tops, Getting ready for some major upgrades!
'05 Cadillac STS - V8, AWD, her DD
'92 Olds Trofeo - Fair weather DD
'84 GMC Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
'97 Buick LeSabre - L67 winter DD
'92 Pontiac Bonneville SSE future project

Doesn't run:
'87 Buick LeSabre T-type - future victim
'67 Buick LeSabre - future victim


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:44 pm 
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I think you just have a habit of trying to fix simple problems (like *shoot* bearing clearances because of a *shoot* machine shop) in the most complicated manner possible. You're like Rick...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:38 pm 
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Is that a bad thing? I have yet to find a machine shop, in Detroit of all places, that can rebuild a bottom end like an OEM 3800.

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Blow all the things! Wait, I meant boost. Boost!
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Runs:
'93 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi - Twincharged, manual, and lots more! Build thread
'97 Chevy Camaro - 3800, T5, T-tops, Getting ready for some major upgrades!
'05 Cadillac STS - V8, AWD, her DD
'92 Olds Trofeo - Fair weather DD
'84 GMC Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
'97 Buick LeSabre - L67 winter DD
'92 Pontiac Bonneville SSE future project

Doesn't run:
'87 Buick LeSabre T-type - future victim
'67 Buick LeSabre - future victim


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Mommy's NEW RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Daddy's beater affectionately called the Rolling Garbage Can or "RGC" for short
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2009 Chevrolet Impala SS: LS4 V8, Victory Red
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:44 am 
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Not sure if this helps but the 65 pump has a few more vanes. And if I remember back 13 years or so ago from the James/turbo400sbc series 1/series 2 hybrid thread, the S1 oil pump is wider and you may be able to adapt the S1 cover to fit the S2.

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