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 Post subject: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
Hello all, new member, first post.

I have a 96 SSEi and have recently purchased the ZZPerformance Stage 1 kit which includes a tuned PCM.

Apparently the tuning software only works on 97 and newer PCMs. I sent my 96 PCM to ZZP and they informed me that both of their tuners could not read my 96 PCM, and offered to tune a 97 PCM and see if it works in my car.

So, my question, before everything arrives, is will the 97 PCM work in my 96 car? What is the difference between a 96 and 97 that makes them compatible or incompatible? Is there any known way to tune a 96 PCM?

If it makes any difference at all my car is a Canadian Spec built 3/96.

Thank you in advance for any help! See you around the boards!
Mike

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Location: Las Cruces, NM
Year and Trim: 1993 Buick Park Avenue
1994 Buick Regal Custom
The big hangup is that the '96 came with the 4T60e-HD, and the '97 got the 4T65e-HD transmission.

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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:30 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
Oh ok. So basically the 97 pcm won't work due to the tranny change?

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 11:47 pm
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Location: Philly
Year and Trim: 95 SLE
Either way I do believe you would need to do some repinning but 97 SEs still had the 60e. So it could be possible.

Try searching this forum. This has definitely come up before and maybe figured out.

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72 Yamaha DS7: '74 RD250 swap, JL chambers

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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
I'll definetly have to do some more research then. I talked to ZZP and they were hoping that the 97 PCM will override the transmission line pressures and just go by the shift points. It will be arriving tomorrow so I will install the PCM tomorrow night, see what happens and report back, I don't mind having to repin a little bit, that's simple.

It really sounds like these are the odd ball cars of the group with lots of specific stuff to them.

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:17 am 
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 3:53 pm
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Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan
Year and Trim: 99 Regal GS
You will definitely have to do some repinning to make the 97 pcm work in a 96 car. There are a LOT of pins that need to be moved to make it work, it's not even close. You could make it happen but it's most if not all pins that need to be moved. It might be easier to grab a whole 97 harness from a donor car. I would go over all of the wiring diagrams in a lot of detail if you just want to repin the harness.

ZZP should know that 97 pcms have no problem controlling the 4t60e. with the 4t60e, the line pressure is controlled by the vacuum modulator so there shouldn't be any issue with that part. I haven't had any luck with changing the WOT shift points in a 4t60e car. I've found that changing those tables at all with either year pcm causes the trans to not shift at all at WOT.

The 96 PCM can be tuned with DHP, but it is definitely an odd ball. It has a lot less functionality than the 97 PCM's.

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2009 Chevy Silverado 2500HD crew cab, 6.0, Z71. The project mover.
1999 Buick Regal GS 3.4" pulley,SLP headers, fwi, pnp, gemini chain w/ other trans mods, 12" brakes, GR2's, STB's, 34mm front sway bar; The Summer DD
1982 Pontiac Grand Prix L36 and an hx35 turbo; It's pretty quick Mod list here


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:06 am 
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Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 11:47 pm
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Location: Philly
Year and Trim: 95 SLE
Also hit up http://www.gmtuners.com/. I'm pretty sure they can tune 96s.

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95 SLE... a keeper. 241k miles. Low and Slow.
98 Infiniti vq35'd i30: 13.3@104mph, 30MPG Hwy
07 Infiniti G35s 6MT
07 Ducati Monster S2R 800 with DS1000 swap
05 Suzuki DRZ400S
74 Yamaha DT175: brap brap, brap
72 Yamaha DS7: '74 RD250 swap, JL chambers

Info on dropping a 92-99: Here.


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:56 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 pm
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
So want some interesting news? Plugged the pcm in and the car fired right up and ran and drove properly and didn't do anything goofy or throw any codes...yet. I only drove it around the block before I verified the ran the can and then tore into it to install my pulley and all the other goodies.

And little did I know you have to remove that whole stupid engine mount bracket to do the belts....

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 3:53 pm
Posts: 556
Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan
Year and Trim: 99 Regal GS
I looked through my notes again to double check since that didn't sound right at all. Looks like I had the 96/97 swap mixed with the 97/98 swap.

96/97's are very similar if not the same.
98-02's are completely different from the 97/96's.

I'd be interested in hearing if the TCC works properly though, I remember another person having an issue with it working on a 97 pcm in a 96 car.

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2009 Chevy Silverado 2500HD crew cab, 6.0, Z71. The project mover.
1999 Buick Regal GS 3.4" pulley,SLP headers, fwi, pnp, gemini chain w/ other trans mods, 12" brakes, GR2's, STB's, 34mm front sway bar; The Summer DD
1982 Pontiac Grand Prix L36 and an hx35 turbo; It's pretty quick Mod list here


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
I will report back with performance and issues once the car is back up and running in the next few days. I currently have to fight with replacing both belts before I can drive it again.

_________________
'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:39 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
Got everything installed and the car running tonight. Runs and drives great. Everything seems to work as it should and is noticeably much faster and fun.

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
So after a couple days of driving now I am throwing a P0717 turbine inlet speed code. After doing some reading, it seems like the PCM could be causing this.

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 pm
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
Ok, so I went on a 2 hour highway drive and the car drove amazing even with the CEL on for P0717. Then on the way back the car would not shift into 4th or OD. Basically stuck driving in 3rd at 55mph at 3500-400rpm.

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:07 am 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
Update. Drove 2 hours at 100km at 3800rpm in 3rd gear with the CEL on. Got home, put the stock PCM in and cleared the code and the car runs and shifts normally with. I CEL. So i guess the new pcm doesn't like to play nice with the trans line pressures and shift points.

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 3:53 pm
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Location: Farmington Hills, Michigan
Year and Trim: 99 Regal GS
I would let ZZP know about the issues you're having. The 97 PCM should work fine with a 4t60e, there must be something in the tune that it doesn't like though.

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2009 Chevy Silverado 2500HD crew cab, 6.0, Z71. The project mover.
1999 Buick Regal GS 3.4" pulley,SLP headers, fwi, pnp, gemini chain w/ other trans mods, 12" brakes, GR2's, STB's, 34mm front sway bar; The Summer DD
1982 Pontiac Grand Prix L36 and an hx35 turbo; It's pretty quick Mod list here


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 pm
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
Yes I have emailed them and waiting for a response. I drove the car to work and back today on the stock pcm with no issues.

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'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:18 pm
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Year and Trim: 96 Bonneville SSEi
96 Bonneville SE
I've tried to plug the ZZP PCM in a drive the car a few more times. Each time it either throws the same P0717 code as soon as you start the car or will come on after a minute or two. Or, the car may run fine with no CEL but will still not shift into 4th. It takes off and runs up to redline in all 3 gears like a bat out of hell and literally tops out at 140kmh/85mph in 3rd at redline.

ZZP has said to send it back and they will retune it to delete the code and hope that works.

I just find it strange how it worked so well for a few days and then suddenly on the same long trip it just went stupid. I would really like to have the tuned PCM work for this car, it makes a night and day difference in the shifting. I guess we will wait and see.

_________________
'96 Bonneville SSEi - White on Teal - ZZP L67 Stage 1 Kit, 3.6" Modular Pulley Kit, Tuned PCM, Autolite 104 Plugs, 180 deg T-stat, ZZP SC coupler, High Voltage Ignition Coils, 10.5mm Wires, Short Ram Intake, 16" Gold Crosslaces with Yokohama Avid Envigor Rubber, 6000k LED headlights, 7000k LED Fogs, 6000k Plate LEDs, DRL Delete, Sony Headunit, Alpine Component Speakers.....More go fast and look good to come....

'96 Bonneville SE - Green on Taupe - "The Beater" - L36, K&N drop in filter, 8.5mm wires, '04 Grand Prix sawblade wheels, Sony HU. Over 270,000 reliable KM, it just won't die! Also built 3/96, 9 days after the SSEi


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 Post subject: Re: 96 vs 97 PCM?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:19 am 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 2:08 pm
Posts: 26000
Location: Space Coast, or at least it used to be
Year and Trim: 03 SLE, 95 SE, 95 TS SE
The 97 PCM with the with a 97 SSEi tune will only properly control the 4T65E.. The 65E only uses a PWM solenoid for TCC lock.. Where the 96 4T60E uses a TCC on-off and PWM apply Solenoids So the 96 4T60E will never lock up with the 97 L67 Tune..

The codes you see are due to the PCM receiving no pulses from sensors that the PCM is looking for as the 4T60E does not use these sensors..

From what I have researched and learned, its superposed to be possible to run a 98 PCM with the L67 bin file but the 98 has the fuzzy logic to control either transmission, its a matter of turning certain items on or off and possibly zero out a few tables... I have always wanted to try this on my cars but just have not had the time to test it out..

There is a fiero forum out there that has some info on it, the guy knows how to do it but charges for it.. If I ever figure it out, I will post it in Tech Info for everyone.. And if you beat me to it, I'll love you forever...lol


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