It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:54 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:35 pm 
Offline
GXP Member
GXP Member

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 298
Year and Trim: 2002 Buick LeSabre
Hello,
In about 3 weeks I will need to replace the IM's on a 3800 due to the infamous dex leak (has almost 60k miles). In the process, I would like to learn more of this motor and maybe to hike-up the performance a bit. I have built performance engines before (but this was 350 small blocks). Its been awhile, and so here we go:

Maybe since I'm from the carb era, explanations could be with that as reference. I know nothing of fuel injectors and I would like to replace stock injectors with those which would increase performance. Maybe if someone could quick-review the process, my options, and a reliable manufactured replacement to go with.

Are some injectors 'plug and play' or will they need to be tuned?? I've heard both stories. And is this comparable to carb jetting? If increased injector performance requires that they be tuned I'd rather stay with the stock replacements first time around--unless tuning is required across-the- board, for all injectors.

Ok, if this has been covered before please direct me to that thread..


Last edited by carl on Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:18 pm 
Offline
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Posts: 65489
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre
Different fuel injectors will do you no good whatsoever until your engine can flow more air (cam or rockers, and ported heads with an intake and exhaust to support it).

Your PCM will command a proper air/fuel ratio regardless of what injectors you choose. Go bigger, and your PCM will throttle back the duty cycle to get the proper O2 readings. And that'll hurt you, because the injectors will be drooling fuel during the times they're firing.

You want better performance? Boost your fuel pressure and choose a slightly SMALLER injector. Carefully calculated, you can do this without your injectors going static, and the result is better fuel atomization, resulting in more power OR better fuel economy, depending on your right foot.

Bigger injectors will ONLY get you better performance when you've done alot of other work to make the motor flow MORE AIR. Many people bump injector size up far too early in the mod game because they don't understand that bigger injectors don't add power. They think injectors themselves add power, and they don't. Bigger injectors seem to be bragging rights for the uneducated.

For instance, when it was time to bump up injectors on my Zilla, I could have gone to 36lb injectors (from my stock 29's) with stock fuel pressure. I chose instead to bump my fuel pressure from 3.0bar to 3.5bar, so I could run 32lb injectors at a higher pressure for better atomization. I get perfect AFR's as a result. If I wanted to, I could drop my pressure back to 3.0bar and drop in my 36lb injectors, and I'd still have perfect AFR's, but my power would drop slightly and my fuel efficiency would suffer, due to the fact that the fuel is not atomizing as well as it does with the higher pressure.

And my PCM and O2 sensor are very happy.


Ultimately, it takes fewer mods on a supercharged 3800 to outflow the injectors than it does on your non-supercharged motor. I'm not aware of any properly-running modded L36 (like yours) on this Forum that has yet needed to bump fuel injector sizes.

_________________
Image
Click here for mod list for both cars
93 SSEi, 95 SLE (supercharged) 97 Buick LeSabre Limited
PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
Comprehensive guide to troubleshooting, rebuilding, and modifying Eaton Superchargers


Last edited by willwren on Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:27 am 
Offline
Certified Bonneville Nut
Certified Bonneville Nut

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:29 pm
Posts: 29203
Year and Trim: 00 Regal
The OBDII pcm's have many tables and calculations that will be affected by changing things w/o retuning the car. Much more power and performance (including mpg) can be gained by tuning alone without needing to touch a single mechanical part. My only regret is that someone didn't mention this to me much earlier, therefore it is mentioned to you carl.

_________________
97 Ei
97 GS
98 GS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:34 pm 
Offline
GXP Member
GXP Member

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 298
Year and Trim: 2002 Buick LeSabre
Fair enough guys, thanks setting me straight. I think I will stay clear of the performance arena for now(seeing as this is my only ride-- other than a rental) but will look to it for future ref. when I have a 2nd vehicle available. Please pull me out of the pit and tell me what the OBDII's refer to?

In the event an injector is bad, are there any tips, tools, techniques? Do they fail with mileage or just need cleaning & how? Which is the best choice manufacter for stock replacement? Occasionally my motor idle & acceleration will drift, like running flat-- way too lean starving for fuel, other times it runs ok, but its never consistent. It has never died out but has come close. It always starts but sometimes it needs to crank where before it used to start key on.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:23 am 
Offline
Certified Bonneville Nut
Certified Bonneville Nut

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:29 pm
Posts: 29203
Year and Trim: 00 Regal
OBDII: The second generation of On Board Diagnostics. This appeared around 94-96 in various vehicles (GM was 96) and was mandated by the US government to be standardized protocol across all manufacturers. This made scanning many brands quick and easy.

On the best injectors etc. If you need some new ones, the lowest cost would be used ones. IIRC there are only 2 brands of injectors available for our cars and they are interchangeable w/o any preferences.

_________________
97 Ei
97 GS
98 GS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:44 pm 
Offline
Certified Bonneville Nut
Certified Bonneville Nut
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:07 pm
Posts: 3863
Location: Galloway, Ohio IDDVI, MWBF05, NEBF06, CEBF06, ONBF06, NEBF07, ONBF07
Year and Trim: 1998 Buick Park Avenue Ultra
OBDII refers to the generation of the PCM(powertrain control module), or computer, in your car. OBDI was used in H-bodies from 92-95, although 95 was a weird crossover year. OBDII started in 96, and increased the number of parameters in the motor that could be actively monitored during diagnostics. It also changed the computer so that it can be written to, or "flashed"; reprogrammed with new tables for fuel/air mix, timing, shift points, shift times, rev and speed limiters, etc. that can increase power, and even help your fuel mileage a bit.

At this point injectors won't gain you any power, like they said above. A reprogrammed PCM, accompanied by a good intake like INTENSE's fenderwell intake, and a few other things will give you a decent hp boost. More importantly, though, an intake and the other basic mods are necessary before you can move on to the big power mods.

_________________
~Brian -- 98 Park Avenue Ultra-- DEFUNCT. Blew the rings in a front cylinder
Mods: Too *dang* many...Click the siggy...
13.87 @ 101.40mph, Kil-Kare Raceway, 10/15/09

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:26 am 
Offline
Retired Gearhead
Retired Gearhead
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 9:11 pm
Posts: 2156
Location: Fayette City,PA
Year and Trim: 1990 Bonneville LE
carl wrote:
In the event an injector is bad, are there any tips, tools, techniques? Do they fail with mileage or just need cleaning & how?


A bad/clogged injector usually leads to lean miss-fires. If you need them cleaned, there's a fellow on this list who's shop does just that and he can mix and match injectors to match up flow on the set. Reasonable price too. Otherwise, jot down the number on the body of the injector and go shopping. "Performance injectors" are really not needed, the stock units work just dandy over a wide range of modifications to the motor.

Based on the hard start problems the car is having, I would lean towards doing the maintenance cycle stuff (cleaning maf, TB, IAC, filters, fix vac leaks, etc, etc.) and check the fuel rail pressure. On a high milage motor do a compression test to see how worn down the cylinders were. All that before thinking about a possible injector problem.

_________________
Bye Bye 1990 Bonneville LE... Now it belongs to my daughter
In the Garage: 2009 Subaru Outback, 1987 Camaro, 2006 SV650S, 1995 Regal 182 "ASANAGI", 1962 Ford Galaxie 500, 1995 Ford F150 XL 4WD, 1953 Farmall Cub


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:34 am 
Offline
GXP Member
GXP Member

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 298
Year and Trim: 2002 Buick LeSabre
Thanks for the help everyone. I will attempt manifold/gasket replacement (for leak) over the holiday in a few. Hopefully all goes smooth, I may be back with some questions on that.

Clm2112, I will do the maintenance and look at the manifold you suggested, also is TB throttle body? and what is IAC, do you know if there are posts here that go through details of cleaning those? I will try to find some additional posts.

Please suggest any other 60k maintenance/replacements made easier doing while I have the manifolds off--plugs, wires, belts, etc?? Also after repairs, is there any reason to keep using DEX coolant or stay away from it? Its getting cold now in the midwest and I'd like to get most things done now rather than fiddling in the winter. Thanks again for all the help everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:05 pm 
Offline
Retired Site Developer
Retired Site Developer
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:30 pm
Posts: 20960
Location: MN/IA
Year and Trim: '17 Silverado 1500
wjcollier07 wrote:
Brand Suggestions are in the parentheses.

    1987-2005 Bonneville / Buick 3800 Maintenance List

    Run Seafoam through gasoline and intake every 5,000 miles. One pint of Seafoam in a half tank of fuel is a good mix. The intake is optional, but recommended.

    Grease: Ball Joints, Tie Rods Every 8-10k (Green Grease recommended) http://www.greengrease.net/
    Air Filter Every 15k (Amsoil EaA, Purolator PureONE)
    PCV Valve Every 15k
    MAF Sensor Element Cleaning/TB Cleaning Every 15-30k viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1661
    Fuel Filter Every 12-15k (Purolator, AC Delco, WIX)
    Spark Plugs Every 30k (NGK TR55 or Autolite 605) (Never Bosch)
    Ignition Wires Every 30k (Napa Belden, AC Delco, Autolite Pro, NGK) (Never Taylor or Bosch)
    Oil & Filter Every 5-6k (Mobil1, Purolator PureONE, Amsoil EaO or WIX) (Never Fram) viewtopic.php?f=45&t=214
    *Conventional Oil Every 3k(Pennzoil with a WIX (Napa), Delco or Purolator filter)
    Transmission Flush Every 15-20k (Always make sure filter is changed when flushed)
    Cooling System Flush Every 25k (Peak or Prestone Green Coolant Only) (Never Dexcool)
    Oxygen Sensor Every 80-100k (30k for non-heated) (AC Delco or Denso) (Absolutely never Bosch) viewtopic.php?f=48&t=794

    *Special Considerations*
    All 3800s, LG3, LN3, L27, L36, L26, L67 & L32, especially important on vehicles factory installed with orange Havoline Dexcool Antifreeze/Coolant: http://www.dex-cool.net/
    Lower Intake Manifold Gasket Replacement, every 80-100k (ignorance of this can allow coolant to enter your engine oil, this happening can cause irreversible lower engine damage, requiring replacement of subject engine)

    Series II, Naturally Aspirated, RPO:L36:
    Upper Intake Manifold Plenum Replacement, every 80-100k (ignorance of this can allow coolant to enter your intake manifold, possible damage to occur can be hydrolock, irreversible damage to emissions devices, misfires, etc. Most times, engine replacement is required if ignored long enough.) viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1061



This is a good check list. DO NOT use Dex Kill, use "mixes with any color" coolant, from prestone, or other. Also, for the TB (yes it is Throttle Body) and IAC you just use some Throttle Body and MAF safe cleaner, in an aerosol can, found at most parts stores. You are using the Aluminum gaskets, correct? And replacing the UIM with a Dorman or APN?

_________________
Bye Bye:
Image
RIP sandrock
Sirius wrote:
Think about it. You’re tooling down the road in your Prius, knowing full-well that this thing being green is as big a sham as federally mandated ethanol-enriched gas, Russia pulling out of Ukraine, and Obamacare.


Last edited by 00Beast on Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:59 am 
Offline
GXP Member
GXP Member

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 298
Year and Trim: 2002 Buick LeSabre
Thanks Beast I will take your advice on these items. Yes I have the APN and GM aluminum gaskets. I also have a clean boneyard LM that I can do instead, to make the repair go quicker. With that, is it worth porting LM to gasket size at this time, or forget it since the heads are stock port and may cause other problems?

For my own knowledge: why never Bosch and what about the k&n oil filter I'm using? I thought Bosch had good quality parts? Also I read before about replacing the coils as PM at 60k+ (or is it a waste of time and money?)
Thanks for your help.


Last edited by carl on Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:19 am 
Offline
Posts like an L27
Posts like an L27

Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 2:40 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Des Plaines, IL 60018
Year and Trim: 1988 and 1987 Buick Lesabre T-Type
There is a trend with 3800s to not like bosch plugs and O2 sensors. Must be different with me and my 3 3800s. I have used both with no problems.

I wouldnt replace the coils unless they were bad.

_________________
~~~Freddy~~~ Wyotech Graduate, Future RCSAMS student
Pandora 1988 Lesabre T-Type 259000 miles
Darlington 1987 Lesabre T-Type 115000 miles
Cream Puff 1988 Lesabre T-Type 194500 miles
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:28 pm 
Offline
Retired Site Developer
Retired Site Developer
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:30 pm
Posts: 20960
Location: MN/IA
Year and Trim: '17 Silverado 1500
carl wrote:
Thanks Beast I will take your advice on these items. Yes I have the APN and GM aluminum gaskets. I also have a clean boneyard LM that I can do instead, to make the repair go quicker. With that, is it worth porting LM to gasket size at this time, or forget it since the heads are stock port and may cause other problems?

For my own knowledge: why never Bosch and what about the k&n oil filter I'm using? I thought Bosch had good quality parts? Also I read before about replacing the coils as PM at 60k+ (or is it a waste of time and money?)
Thanks for your help.

I run a K&N Oil filter with no issues. Be prepared to change the oil twice, however, with the LIM Change.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3591

_________________
Bye Bye:
Image
RIP sandrock
Sirius wrote:
Think about it. You’re tooling down the road in your Prius, knowing full-well that this thing being green is as big a sham as federally mandated ethanol-enriched gas, Russia pulling out of Ukraine, and Obamacare.


Last edited by 00Beast on Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:07 am 
Offline
Posts like an LN3
Posts like an LN3

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:23 am
Posts: 439
Location: Maple Grove, Minnesota
Year and Trim: 1998 Bonneville SE?
carl wrote:
Thanks Beast I will take your advice on these items. Yes I have the APN and GM aluminum gaskets. I also have a clean boneyard LM that I can do instead, to make the repair go quicker. With that, is it worth porting LM to gasket size at this time, or forget it since the heads are stock port and may cause other problems?

For my own knowledge: why never Bosch and what about the k&n oil filter I'm using? I thought Bosch had good quality parts? Also I read before about replacing the coils as PM at 60k+ (or is it a waste of time and money?)
Thanks for your help.


When you port your LIM you DO NOT port it to the size of the gasket. In fact if your junkyard LIM looks clean, smooth, and the holes are squarish it may not be worth porting. I believe LIM porting is popular here because many stock LIMs are fugly and need cleaning up for proper air flow. If you gasket match it may make the holes too large and it might cause turbulence going into the heads and lose performance. I know some people on the grand prix forums say to gasket match it but quite a few people on these boards are quite set in the belief that it's best to make the holes as square as possible with 1.9 and .9 dimensions WITHOUT messing with the corner where the injectors go. There are multiple threads on this if you do a quick "LIM porting" search. personally I'd take advise from this site over other sites.

Also be VERY thorough in following instructions and doing all the steps when replacing the LIM and UIM. It is very easy to miss something and get an air leak. It's also an absolute pain in the ass to do alone so get at least one other person to help if not just for setting in the LIM.

If you look in the techinfo link on the top of the website there is a way to test your coils to see if they are going bad.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:00 am 
Offline
GXP Member
GXP Member

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 298
Year and Trim: 2002 Buick LeSabre
Ok thanks, you guys on this forum helped me alot already. Yeah freneticburn, I'm scared of changing the air ratios too much, as this is my only ride and I really can't put the time into tweeking at this point with my work. In the future I hope to get more into performance with a 2nd vehicle, for now its not worth the gains vs. the time fiddling for someone new to 3800's. I will do a good cleaning and deep LIM port polishing and maybe I can pull out a few hp combined with the tune-up suggestions and injector cleaning.

Thanks Beast for the link, before I was looking at another thread for the LIM repair, the more info. the better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:21 pm 
Offline
Posts like a Northstar
Posts like a Northstar
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 11:01 am
Posts: 2019
Location: Muscatine, IA
Year and Trim: 1995 LX(went to the shredder)*sniffle*
1999 SE
The change in air flow is handled by the MAF sensor. If it moves more air, it adds more fuel.

_________________
I have a Bonneville, it's white and N/A! :twisted:
Image
Mod List: Hood and Fender "adjustment" - "Enhanced" A/C compressor clutch - Extra loud PS Pump - Mega sensitive CKPS - Audible Rear Drums - Lowered headliner - Custom stained upholstery - "Brown Devil" weight reduction kit - Low Friction Belt. More to come!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:33 pm 
Offline
GXP Member
GXP Member

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 298
Year and Trim: 2002 Buick LeSabre
Ok thanks for the info.
I just read more on the porting threads and they said no polishing either.
I will pass on this mod. for now (although its crazy to). The only way I'd consider is if there is a shop that is already familiar with the details to do this correctly for a stock application, I don't have the tools. I know its simple, but those are the jobs that generic speed shops goof on-- and then they'll always claim that their cut will work better...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:04 am 
Offline
Certified Bonneville Nut
Certified Bonneville Nut

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:29 pm
Posts: 29203
Year and Trim: 00 Regal
Depending where you are located, there might be a member nearby that can help you out and walk you through it.

_________________
97 Ei
97 GS
98 GS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:26 am 
Offline
GXP Member
GXP Member

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 298
Year and Trim: 2002 Buick LeSabre
I'm near the Fox Lake area in IL. Also I have no problems with traveling a bit south to the Addison, IL area (used to be many good shops there in the past).

The main work needed would be cleaning, 'squaring-up' the outlets ports to (.88x1.88), then surface milling the bottom side (and top if needed).

If too much time is involved with doing the rest, I could hit most of the other runner work with a dremel, first.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Related topics
 Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Series 1 Fuel Injector Options

fmacnak

7

1636

Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:10 am

fmacnak View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. series 2 3800

96sebonnie

5

2268

Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:23 am

willwren View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. How to Mod a 3800 series 2 N/A?

Night Crawler

18

11352

Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:14 pm

01bonneSC View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. 3800 series 2 Bogs Down Upon Quick acceleration

DomSalinas512

0

0

Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm

Guest View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. 3800 series 2 Bogs Down Upon Quick acceleration

DomSalinas512

0

0

Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm

Guest View the latest post

 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group


phpBB SEO