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 Post subject: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:27 pm 
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I'm curious about the pros and cons for deleting the EGR. Can anyone post their experiences and the pros/cons?
I've heard that you can turn off the EGR through a tuner and was wondering what benefits exist and the drawbacks.


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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:06 pm 
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Burnt valves (higher combustion/exhaust temps), higher emissions and lower fuel economy are just a few obvious reasons you shouldn't do it. I don't know of any benefits.

Most times that is only done when installing headers that don't have EGR built in..and those must specify "Off Road Use Only" because removing stock emission control systems on any vehicle driven anywhere On-Road in the US is illegal.

I might add that under WOT conditions, the EGR shuts off anyways...and so it really has no adverse horsepower decreasing factors.

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Last edited by wjcollier07 on Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:40 pm 
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just leave it reduces KR during normal driving. If you take it out will hurt regular driving performance and cause KR. The PCM will retard until KR goes away and your gas milage will suffer. Plus I know you wont pass emissions.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:08 pm 
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The bene's are:
- you don't suck exhaust gasses into your motor.
- Cleaner motor internals, oil stays cleaner longer.
- The lack of exhaust gasses will keep the air fuel mixture stable. When the egr opens it allows un-metered air into the motor and the PCM can't adjust the fueling correctly.
- The exhaust gasses have been proven to be a root cause for part throttle KR because it raises the intake air temps while adding the un-metered air and leaning out the air fuel mixure.
I'd be happy to explain how the PCM calculates the AFR if necessary.

I would strongly suggest that you use the software to disable the egr "Before" you tune your car. especially during your part throttle afr tuning and MAF tuning.

I have never heard about the decreased gas milage. It kind of makes sense if... you have an MAF sensor. because when the egr opens the air flow coming thru the maf will decrease because the engine vac will suck the exhaust gasses into the intake, therefore the injector pulse will decrease. While its leaning out your fuel mixture and saving you gas, its possibly causing your part throttle KR.

About the emmisions thing... :bsflag: Not true.
If you dissable the egr before you tune the car... you will effectively tune the car correctly which means 14.7 afr during all part throttle driving. that's a lean fuel mixture, you can tune it to 15.7 if you like although i wouldn't.
This also means you tune to 11.7-ish during PE mode and this includes WOT. 11.8 afr is leaner then the stock WOT ar which is 10.7-ish. The lower your afr value the richer the fuel mixture.

Not trying to start a fight, I just disagree with the big picture.
The United States is just one of the few countrys that have EGR valves in cars. japan does not use the EGR and their cars run clean and pass emmissions tests.
If you have a good tune in your car, you can pass a clean air tail pipe test with out even having a cat installed.

The cat and EGR are just part of American politics.
All the egr does effectively as far as the gov is concerned is allow more air in the mixture of exhaust gasses. remember the air pumps back in the 80's? they were just pumping air into the exhaust pipe so you would have a higher ratio of O2 in the exhaust. back in the day they didn't have MAF sensors and fuel injectors to keep things optimized for us.

FWIW I haven't had an EGR on my Grand Prix for 6 years or so and 4 years ago i passed a tail pipe smog test in Arizona. Normally I would only have the PCM scanned but appearently I had a code in my history so they failed my test.
I spoke to them and for my $26.00 test fee i get a free recheck so i Flashed my pcm, changed the spark plugs turned the AC on and turned my IC pump off, drove thru again and they stuck the sucker thingy on my tail pipe then drove the car on the dyno as if they were driving up a moutain road. it was funny, the guy said he barley touched the gas and he was going 55 mph :wink: anyway... my car passed.

Please don't mistake my comment about a cat, the cat does work, it heats up the exhaust gasses... some more... and burns up more of the gasses before they exit but keep in mind .. they are not needed nearly as much as they used to be. Remember when the cat convertors first came out, they had an air line plumbed into them and the plan was to blow air into them in efforts to get them hotter because they needed more air for more.. hotter burn, to be more effective.. because they weren't working.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:10 pm 
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dirtracr95 wrote:
just leave it reduces KR during normal driving. If you take it out will hurt regular driving performance and cause KR. The PCM will retard until KR goes away and your gas milage will suffer. Plus I know you wont pass emissions.


This reply is completely backwards.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:16 pm 
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The EGR valve cools the combustion process which is always good..

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 pm 
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Ragsdale wrote:
The EGR valve cools the combustion process which is always good..

Would you mind explaining how adding hot air and leaning the fuel mixture will cool the combustion?

Compared to sucking air in from your FWI/CAI and metering the proper amount of fuel?

Sometimes i am amazed at what I read. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:58 pm 
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PDXGTP wrote:
dirtracr95 wrote:
just leave it reduces KR during normal driving. If you take it out will hurt regular driving performance and cause KR. The PCM will retard until KR goes away and your gas milage will suffer. Plus I know you wont pass emissions.


This reply is completely backwards.


there is no sniffer test in IL so he will most likely fail. During normal driving the EGR will operate bringing in calculated amounts of exhaust gas which is inert it doesnt burn. The MAF reading will be lower and the PCM will adjust the fuel for it so the AFR stays the same. It lowers the combustion chamber tempertures which reduce NOx emissions. Even if he was put on the sniffer test he would probably fail the NOx portion on the IM240. The PCM uses the average of the oscillations from the O2 sensor to determine the AFR. If you actually want to look at the range of the O2 in terms of millivolts it 14.7 should average out to be .45-.50. Now when you look at it on a scan tool it will fluctuate between .2-.8.


the air that goes into the combustion chamber is inert and it will not burn so it will not create more heat. Thus keeping the combustion chamber cooler than if it didnt have the inert gas

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:59 pm 
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re-circulates and mixes with the intake air causing a inert gas.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:11 am 
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Everything stated in this thread about the function of the EGR valve is true, except for what PDXGTP said.

BTW, I did delete EGR in the 1998 LeSabre with PowrTuner, followed by a full tune, just to see what I'd get. Compared with before (which also had a full tune), I got:

    Reduced max timing in low-load parts of the timing table.
    Loss of about 2 mpg in daily driving (low load / cruise, 1500-2500 rpm or so, is when the EGR is actually operating).
    No noticeable or measurable performance gain.

Also, I had to replace the EGR valve on my 1993 Dodge Dakota recently, because it was broken (stupid vacuum / rubber diaphragm design) and the truck wouldn't pass NOx emissions.

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Last edited by agrazela on Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:39 am 
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agrazela wrote:
Everything stated in this thread about the function of the EGR valve is true, except for what PDXGTP said.

BTW, I did delete EGR in the 1998 LeSabre with PowrTuner, followed by a full tune, just to see what I'd get. Compared with before (which also had a full tune), I got:

    Reduced max timing in low-load parts of the timing table.
    Loss of about 2 mpg in daily driving (low load / cruise, 1500-2500 rpm or so, is when the EGR is actually operating).
    No noticeable or measurable performance gain.

Also, I had to replace the EGR valve on my 1993 Dodge Dakota recently, because it was broken (stupid vacuum / rubber diaphragm design) and the truck wouldn't pass NOx emissions.


Thank you, I am going to wyotech right now and i just got done getting through engine management systems 1 and 2 i am fairly confident in what my school has taught me and my ability to apply it to different situations. We went over emissions heavily. I know a little about tuning but not too much. I will learn more in my later classes, and once i buy my own tuning program and start practicing tuning my cars

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:45 am 
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PDXGTP wrote:
Would you mind explaining how adding hot air and leaning the fuel mixture will cool the combustion?



The exhaust gas being recirculated is less dense than the outside air. When the EGR activates and puts the exhaust gas into the manifold, it displaces the air that would have been sucked into the manifold from the outside world.

What you are missing is that when the EGR is on, the mixture does not become leaner as you suggest, it become RICHER. Instead of adding fuel, it is reducing the oxidizer. That cools the cylinders off in the same manner as jacking up the fuel delivery. The resulting rich mixture also suppress any knock.

Last, a motor missing the EGR can pass a tailpipe emmissions check (there are 3800's that left the factory without an EGR valve) but it will still fail the visual inspection if the owner's state does that.


And BTW, you reference to AIR injector pumps is a little off too... they pumped outside air into the exhaust headers and directly into the cat. This was needed to provide free oxygen for the cat process to work. Air pumps went away when the propeller heads writing the code in the ECM's figured out how to cycle the mixture rich/lean/rich to oxygenate the cat without the need of an external pump. You can see it in action when cruising down the road watching the O2 sensor.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:47 pm 
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I have had my EGR deleted for about 6 years.

Keeps the intake tract and SC very clean and I have measured much cooler temps by removing the heat added by blocking both it and the coolant passages going to the TB.

The EGR has been removed from my Firebird for 28 years.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:31 pm 
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If you have to question the validity of having an EGR, you should probably leave it.

I removed it on my 98 and so far I'm leaving it on my 2000.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:59 pm 
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The most recent replies here are correct. The EGR reduces combustion temperatures. Yes, deleting it CAN cause KR and burnt valves. But there's alot of dependencies. It looks like the testing posted above showed a direct link in our 3800 application to KR and timing.

The most common time to delete the EGR is when you intercool. I've been testing with and without the EGR for that reason, and unless you run some sort of water injection PRE-intercooler occasionally, the internal core can get sooted up pretty good. The intercooler reason for deleting the EGR is a valid reason, and is made safer by the naturally cooler intake charge the intercooler provides, but to be safe, it's best to stay a bit on the fat side at cruising rpm's.

If I had a choice, I'd leave my EGR on the Zilla. But with the intercooler, I don't have much of a choice but to delete it.

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 Post subject: Re: EGR Delete
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Just for note...

GM used the Tuned Port 3800 without an EGR from 1990( in some models ) to 1992... And the 3300 v6 from 1989-1993 also did not have an EGR..

Both of these engines passed emissions without the aid of EGR valves... But over a short time GM found that these engines were burning exhaust valves and cracking the tubular manifolds due to the higher combustion temperatures...

In 1993 GM reinstated the EGR Valve on the 3800 Vin L Tuned Port... The 3300 did not get the EGR as it was in its last year of production..

I have seen both the EGR'less 3800 and 3300 with Burnt valves.. This was not a Problem on the 3.8 Vin 3 or the 3800 Vin C as both of these had an EGR valve..


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