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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:00 am 
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Year and Trim: 2001 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi
I realized that i have a 97 motor in my car and i am still using the factory installed tranny. I can always swap this and put a 97-99 tranny in here without any problems, correct? My original tranny slips every once in awhile when i tried to mash on the gas to pass, especially in cold weather. sometimes it respnd and snaps my neck sometimes the trans give me a reality check...lol

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:35 am 
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Yes, by changing a few things, it is possible to do that.

But why do you want a 65? Why not just get another 60? The 60 HD is a great trans. If you think the 65 has LESS problems on average, you'd probably be wrong.

But instead of jumping to conclusions on this whole thing....

How many miles? Whats the condition of the fluid? When was the last flush and filter change?

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Now: '15 Toyota Prius III | 134 hp 2ZR-FXE | Silver | 36k
Now: '03 Honda CR-V AWD | Slow 4-Cylinder | Dirt | 180k

Then: '07 Ford Fusion SEL | 221hp Gen I VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Tungsten Silver | 150k
Then: '99 Toyota Avalon XL | 200hp 1MZ-FE 3.0 V6 | Diamond White | 189k | Sold: July 2015
Then: '11 Ford Fusion SEL | 240hp Gen II VVT Duratec 3.0 V6 | Ingot Silver | 84k | Totaled: Oct 23 '14 (Rear-Ended)
Then: '96 Buick Park Avenue Ultra | 240hp Series II L67 | Medium Dark Lichen | Bought: JAN 11 @ 135k | Accident: FEB 3 '12 | Crushed: MAR 1 '13 @ 153K
Then: '98 Pontiac Bonneville SSE | 205hp Series II 3800 L36 | Topaz Firemist | Bought: NOV '09 @ 74k | Accident: MAY 28 '10 | Crushed: MAR 15 '11 @ 84k
Then: '93 Pontiac Bonneville SE | 170hp Series I 3800 L27 | Dark Yellow Green | Bought: JULY '07 @ 92k | Sold: JULY '12 @ 118k
Then: '89 Pontiac Bonneville LE | 165hp 3800 LN3 | Medium Garnet Red | Bought: JAN '05 @ 117k | Sold: SEP 30 '07 @ 152k


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:29 am 
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Simply swapping in the wrong trans won't get you anywhere.

You've got alot more work to do along the lines of wiring and a different PCM to make a 65 work. And I agree with the above. The 60 is a great trans that has been proven to be able to handle abuse.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:34 am 
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There are really only two reasons to swap in a 4T65:

-You can't afford to have your trans rebuilt or you can't find a replacement 4T60
-You plan on modding the car beyond what a built -60 can take

As far as swaps go it's one of the easier ones but there's a lot more to it than simply dropping in a new trans.

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1996 SSEi (year confused and on the road again at last) : swapped 4T65, cammed and intercooled among other things
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:28 pm 
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I've pushed the -60 well beyond what most members here will ever see. And they CAN be built even tougher than OEM (by quite a bit).

You'll still be rebuilding a 65 anyway, so why not just improve what you have? For the record, on our top-25 list, there are only 8 cars capable of a 1.9 second 60' (the greatest abuse your trans will ever see). I'm doing that with a 4T60E and launching AT my torque peak with a slightly higher stall on my converter (The series 1 peaks torque lower than the Series 1).

That's abuse. Probably more abuse than all but the top 3 cars on the list at launch. (and I'm going farther with it right now)

http://www.rogue-cavern.net/fwdquarter.html

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:34 pm 
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The 65 swap is relatively easy. Recently I helped a buddy do this on his car. 5-6 wires added into the harness, the 4T65 connector for the trans was changed and his pcm was upgraded to a 97 pcm for the trans parameters/correct gear ratio etc.

The correlation between top 25 cars and 60 foots comes into play regarding hard launches taking their toll over time. No matter which trans you have, build it accordingly and it should take care of you.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:58 pm 
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superchargedSSEi wrote:
There are really only two reasons to swap in a 4T65:

-You can't afford to have your trans rebuilt or you can't find a replacement 4T60
-You plan on modding the car beyond what a built -60 can take


Or you plan on reving more than a couple hundred rpm higher that stock.
Historically, 60e's cannot take higher revs as well as the 65e can.

Also, the 65e has been pushed much further in general and is more predictable. In other words it's generally known what should break at what power level and what should be done about it. (hardened this or that)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:27 am 
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If you plan to run rockers and springs or even better yet a cam you definitely should upgrade to a 4t65. To take advantage of a series 2 powerband with any kind of upgrades to the valve system you need to rev the motor to at least 6,000 RPMs and the 4t60 simply can't take rev that high because the trans fluid pump is not as efficient as the 4t65 pump.

If you plan on modding your motor past high 13 second quarter mile times you should upgrade IMHO.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:53 am 
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buickman104 wrote:
the 4t60 simply can't take rev that high because the trans fluid pump is not as efficient as the 4t65 pump.


Eventually, I will find out if that is the main reason: This is how.

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95 SLE... a keeper. 241k miles. Low and Slow.
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02 Jag X-type
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Info on dropping a 92-99: Here.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:06 am 
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Not to sound stupid or anything but I was under the impression that 96 trans was vacuum controlled from the throttle body. My question is, was the throttle body on the 97 engine changed out? The 97 throttle body does not have the vacuum port to go to the trans.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:58 am 
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Roadtech195 wrote:
Not to sound stupid or anything but I was under the impression that 96 trans was vacuum controlled from the throttle body. My question is, was the throttle body on the 97 engine changed out? The 97 throttle body does not have the vacuum port to go to the trans.


IIRC for 97, if you have a L67, you have a 4t65-hd (no vac control) and if you have a L36, you have a 4t60-e (vac controlled).

You can always add another vac port. I did it to a 99+ L67 TB when I ported one for my 95.

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95 SLE... a keeper. 241k miles. Low and Slow.
97 BMW 528i
98 Infiniti vq35'd i30: 13.3@104mph, 30MPG Hwy (RIP)
02 Jag X-type
03 BMW M5
07 Infiniti G35s 6MT
07 Ducati Monster S2R 800 with DS1000 swap
83 Yamaha IT175K
72 Yamaha DS7: '74 RD250 swap, JL chambers

Info on dropping a 92-99: Here.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:34 am 
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If you're running a M-90 L67, the following probably applies, if not, don't worry about it.

FWIW I'm one of said top 3 on the list, I'm running a 268K mile stock 97 ssei trans. I change fluid and filter often(annual or about every 18K miles). I also drive like a Grandpa everywhere other than at the track and I don't do full out smokers at the track when I'm in the burnout box. Once I see smoke on both sides I'm out of the box. :knocks on wood so that the tranny doesn't take a crap on the way home:

One food for thought: Notice all the performance parts for the 4T60?
http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix ... php?id=105
http://www.intense-racing.com/Merchant2 ... ory_Code=T


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:08 pm 
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DR, ZZP and INTENSE don't sell Performance 60 parts. Because they don't care to.

Performance parts for the 60 are readily available through traditional rebuilder channels, and are evidenced by my own trans. SSEiMatt93 can give you further insight into availability, as he's in the business.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:35 pm 
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willwren wrote:
DR, ZZP and INTENSE don't sell Performance 60 parts. Because they don't care to.

Performance parts for the 60 are readily available through traditional rebuilder channels, and are evidenced by my own trans. SSEiMatt93 can give you further insight into availability, as he's in the business.



I didn't mean to imply that the parts weren't available. I was just pointing out that the quickest FWD3800's out there aren't running 4T60e's. It's like an S1, it's great for what it does but the majority of the after market parts and readily available support are for S2 engines, same with the 4T60e vs the 4T65e IMO.

The 202 mph Bonneville also ran a 4T65e so I guess quickest and fastest would apply :beerchug: .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:40 pm 
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The reason the quickest don't run '60's is because most of the 60's (vast majority) are mated to Series 1 motors which are built for more low-end with lower-revving, lower-shifting points. Only the 96 SSEi for Series 2 saw the 4T60. I guess my point would be that sticking with the 60 isn't a disadvantage other than perhaps in PCM tuning, but even that's possible, just through different sources.

They can be built for the power. No question. My car is #8 on that list based on 60' times, and I launch AT my torque peak using a higher stall converter.

Just keeping the fact that the 60 can handle power on the front burner of the conversation. :wink:

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PontiacDad at WCBF '04: Cruise control? That's like surrendering!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:45 am 
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Being that this subject comes up from time to time and it can come down to personal preference, we should try to provide data and facts when possible for those looking for the data to make decisions. There are many cars with documented information for the 4T65 on torque, CHP, WHP, longevity etc. This is unfortunately an area where we are lacking a wealth of information for the 4T60.

Many comparisions can be made between cars like how you and I ran side by side for 8-10 track passes a couple years back, the only determining factor at that time was who launched better. Neither of us beat the other to the 1/8 or 1/16 mark by more than a nose, we were basically equal. My car a 97 Ei with 3.4 pulley, PEM's, larger tires 160K on the trans and a high flow cat, yours a 93 Ei with smaller pulley, some porting and polishing work, pems, swapped top end, meth injection, high flow cat, spring blockers, siped tires of stock size and a freshly built trans. It was an absolute blast running the track with you that day and we had a lot of fun showing the folks there what Bonnie's had in them. Both drive trains ran like champs.

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