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 Post subject: H-body rear disc brakes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Again?!

My rear brakes were acting up again, auto-adjusters siezed despite liberal amounts of anti-sieze.

I'm going to design a bracket to replace the rear drum brakes with disc brakes for the '86+ H-body. It will mount to the knuckle the same way the drum backplate does. I'll post the design up later after I get measurements. Basic idea is to take the caliper and rotor and mount it to the hub and bracket.

I want to use an OEM rear setup that is similar in wheight to the H-body's, but also something that is readily available.
My first thought was to use the setup from the Riviera, but they aren't very common. Much more common is the W-body, but they might be a little small. Did the '00+ H-body get rear discs, beacuse that would be a very close match? The important this is to make sure the rotor has the same hub diameter and bolt pattern and that the size is appropriate for the GVW (about 4700lbs), the rest will be solved by the bracket. Some testing will be required to find the right proportioning valves, but I'll worry about that later.

The illusive Pontiac 6000 STE has proven to be a fruitless pursuit. And I finished my bumper skirt design and need something else to occupy my mind while I save up for these projects. :banghead:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Yes, Matt, all 00+ got discs all around. I'd look into that! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Rear discs from 00+ would work great. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:06 pm 
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How about the Cadillac Seville? Specifically the 86-91 models. I'm not sure if they would be close.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:11 pm 
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I have some rear brackets/calipers/rotors from a 2000+ H-body for you to play with...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:35 pm 
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What are you going to do about proportioning? And the increased pedal travel due to the increase in volume from cylinders to pistons?

Making a bracket is the easy part. Getting it to work as it should will be the difficult part.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:51 pm 
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If anyone can do it, it's Matt... :btruestory: :lol:

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05 Acura RL | 155K mi | Carbon Grey Pearl w/Ebony Int. | The Super-Hooptie Daily


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Last edited by SSEiMan01 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:11 pm 
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I have thought this through, but I don't get very long lunch at work to think 'out loud'...
As far as the proportioning is concerned, I would have to disassemble a rear cylinder and calculate the volume of fluid needed to engage a properly adjusted brake and compare to the rear caliper I chose, then I would have to calculate the volume the master cylinder pushes per stroke and compare to the volume collected through the proportioning valve in the same stroke for both systems. Armed with that information, I can dissect the proportioning valve for the wheel cylinder and the caliper and create a relationship to the valve and the cylinder to give me an initial valve size to test with the caliper. Once I'm comfortable with the bench design, I can test in grass then test on the road. Once I get the proper feel from the brakes, I can torture test them (donor tires for that) and dye check the mounts for cracks. I also have a few 3d modeling programs that have FEA capability as an early design assist (thanx, engineering school!).

It would be a lot easier if I could find said Cadillac, because it is mostly the same thing as the H-body, but the rear disc brake option on it is as illusive as the STE. It has the same master cylinder and the same GVW (IIRC), so I could use those proportioning valves with those calipers if I found one.

I'd rather build these things myself, curse of the mechanical engineer I guess. Same reason I'm converting the '98 boost gauge to a standalone unit (more EE than ME :-$ ) and will be building my own bumper skirts for my car. I should post a sketch of my LG3 tuned intake header... :jester:

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'99 Montana - top swap 3800
'04 Sierra 2500HD - LLY Duramax

Current project:
Something cool, trust me.

Upcoming projects:
'92 Bonneville SSE
'87 LeSabre T-type
'67 LeSabre

Gone to greener pastures:
'84 Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
'97 LeSabre - Top swap

RIP:
'86 LeSabre - pictures
'93 SE - L67


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:48 pm 
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As mentioned above the proper proportioning is important, F1 drivers adjust it corner to corner for a reason!

Getting the master cylinder and brakes from the same car will make life a thousand times easier.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:10 pm 
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is there not a adjustable proportioning valve? seems like stock cars use them


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:23 pm 
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so in theory this would work on my 99 Bonne.

would the ABS and traction control still work ?

love the idea of rear disc on my car.....think GM should have had it from the start

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:09 pm 
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The OEM proportioning valve isn't adjustable. I've never seen one that is, as some dumbass would turn it and lose his brakes, lol.

Could just get an aftermarket adjustable proportioning valve for the rear brakes, but that takes all the fun out of it, lol.

Bruce, it seems like a lot of extra work, and not something that's going to be bolt-on by any stretch of the imagination.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:23 pm 
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00Beast wrote:
Bruce, it seems like a lot of extra work, and not something that's going to be bolt-on by any stretch of the imagination.


I know I know :banghead: but EVERY time i see "rear disc" and 99 Bonne together.... i tend to :banana: .....

sounds awesome though in theory

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:43 am 
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GMC Guy wrote:
so in theory this would work on my 99 Bonne.

would the ABS and traction control still work ?

love the idea of rear disc on my car.....think GM should have had it from the start


I don't see why it wouldn't. I'm not changing the wheel hub/speed sensor, and the proportioning valves are after the ABS module. As long as the vavle is correct, the ABS function won't change.

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The Fleet:
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'97 Camaro - Top swap
'05 STS - V8, AWD, her DD
'92 Trofeo - Fair weather DD
'99 Montana - top swap 3800
'04 Sierra 2500HD - LLY Duramax

Current project:
Something cool, trust me.

Upcoming projects:
'92 Bonneville SSE
'87 LeSabre T-type
'67 LeSabre

Gone to greener pastures:
'84 Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
'97 LeSabre - Top swap

RIP:
'86 LeSabre - pictures
'93 SE - L67


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:20 am 
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MattStrike wrote:
GMC Guy wrote:
so in theory this would work on my 99 Bonne.

would the ABS and traction control still work ?

love the idea of rear disc on my car.....think GM should have had it from the start


I don't see why it wouldn't. I'm not changing the wheel hub/speed sensor, and the proportioning valves are after the ABS module. As long as the vavle is correct, the ABS function won't change.


:banana: :bwoohoo: =D> :hit it: =P~ :bwoohoo: :bouncingsmiles: :dancing: :discomonkey: :headbang2:

i think you get the idea about what i think of this!!

I know it wont be a straight bolt on but the idea ROCKS!! (couldnt find the drummer /band smiley)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:29 am 
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(couldnt find the drummer /band smiley)


:bband:


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91 Riviera | S2 L67 Swap/4T60E | 127K mi | Antelope Met. w/ Tan Int. | Saved From Death By Crusher
92 Bonneville SSE | L67/4T60E | 77K mi | Med Slate Grey w/ Two-Tone Grey Int. | Low Miles Time Capsule
92 Lumina Z34 | LQ1/4T60E | 177k mi | Torch Red w/Grey Int. | Rusty In Odd Spots
99 Tahoe LT | L31/4L65E | 276k mi | Spiral Grey Metallic w/Grey Int. | Truck for Truck Things and Portable Concert Hall
03 Park Avenue Ultra | 212K mi | White Diamond Met. w/ Shale Int. | Southern Time Capsule
05 Acura RL | 155K mi | Carbon Grey Pearl w/Ebony Int. | The Super-Hooptie Daily


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Metering and flow on the Cadillac are the same for disc vs drum rears in the master cylinder
The rear wheel cylinder is common to both the Cadillac and the H-body, and the older H-body cylinder has the same bore as the 96-99 H-body.

Basically means our master cylinder will work fine with the disc brakes from a flow/pressure point of view. The cadillac disc brake has a specific proportioning valve for the rear, which is as I expected.

I'd just have to compare the Cadillac rear caliper to the much cheaper & readily available '00+ rear caliper, to calculate the correct proportioning valve. With any luck, I won't have to make a valve and find something from a common application that fits. Guess I'll be getting dirty this weekend 8-[

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The Fleet:
'93 SSEi - Twincharged + manual Build thread
'97 Camaro - Top swap
'05 STS - V8, AWD, her DD
'92 Trofeo - Fair weather DD
'99 Montana - top swap 3800
'04 Sierra 2500HD - LLY Duramax

Current project:
Something cool, trust me.

Upcoming projects:
'92 Bonneville SSE
'87 LeSabre T-type
'67 LeSabre

Gone to greener pastures:
'84 Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
'97 LeSabre - Top swap

RIP:
'86 LeSabre - pictures
'93 SE - L67


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Looks like most of the hard part is figured out. Good luck with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Rear disc isnt going to add much as far as stopping power. Its still an 80/20 split.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:15 pm 
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But when the rears aren't working at all, then it's hard for them to help, lol. At least discs have less moving parts.

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