I was a kid, with too much time to kill and a yen for cars.

Fortunately my local library carried back issues of every Car & Driver issue going back five years or more. While my peers played N64 , I read about Brock Yates and the 1970s Cannonball run.

I noticed a disturbing pattern among the otherwise well written articles- almost universal "da##ing by faint praise" of GM products , and nearly universal praise of foreign brands like BMW.


Fast forward a decade and change. I just traded a 200K + mile N body Grand Am ( a car the mags hated back in the 00's) for an SLE Bonnie, another car the press lukewarmly reviewed.

Meanwhile "award winning" BMW M3s and 3 series cars from that time are folding their subframes like origami pieces. Later model cars are dropping fuel pumps the way GXPs go through fog light bulbs, and my folks' X3 might make it to 150K- if it's totally rebuilt at national debt level cost.

What gives? Why does the media hate perfectly good cars , and praise junky imports that cost a national bond to fix?

I've never figured it out either... Don't get me wrong, there have been dark times for GM, as has every other manufacturer, but there is a lot of venom against GM. People also seem to be still hung up on GM's borrowing of tax dollars, despite having paid it back and ahead of schedule if I recall. Other domestic manufacturers I.E. Ford and Chrysler, have also taken bailouts in history...

I guess when you were king of the hill at one time, people take shots at you. toyota is getting that "love" now.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Indeed, GMs made some mistakes. So have other firms.

I'm not picking on BMW specifically, but most of my background seems to be with that brand by circumstance. At an old job I met a client who bought a Gen 1 M2 BMW , one of the first off the import dock.

He made it 168 miles before the crankshaft ate itself. BMW warrantied the problem($68,000 worth of labor and parts for a new motor)but he had to make some phone calls first. He'd also researched it and found it was a common defect among the first batch of cars imported.

Funny ,that. I'd never heard of the issue before that day. Meanwhile, some Corvettes have cooling system problems and suddenly the entire internet is abuzz with "Corvettes/GM/American cars suck". One wonders whether Land Rover ,VWAG, and BMW would be in business if folks looked at them as critically as GM does.

Further- and this is something I see too- a lot of folks who own GM cars just don't take care of them. Few or no oil changes, never check the coolant or oil, never keep track of their maintenance, etc...and then wonder why their car falls apart with mileage. Of course , they don't take care of their Toyotas and Hondas either. But when THOSE cars break, it's an act of God.

I think things are changing now and the press are giving GM praise where its due now. Cadillac keep winning awards and group tests these days. Motor Trend had some nice things to say about the Chevy SS recently too.

Problem is though, 99% of the automotive consuming public are fricken morons and are still holding GM to their 1970's standards and refuse to let go of the fact that GM builds some pretty *dang* fine cars now. Second is everyone's beef with them taking a bailout. Seriously. Pull up your panties and deal with it!

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Like most on this forum- I have had GMs all my life (starting with a 1973 El Camino in 1980). The longer I have owned and worked on GMs the more I have come to believe (in my personal assessment) GM could care less about its loyal and core group of owners- which live in the midwest and the northeast.

One just needs to look at the use of steel pipe GM uses for brake lines. Most if not all of the European manufactures switched to copper-nickle brake pipe years ago- yet GM selected not to. The GM drivers in the North East and Midwest often have failing brake pipes- a very easy to prevent problem and yet GM could care less. On our (late) Olds Bravada, garage kept and undercarriage always cleaned, the brake lines failed on my Wife 61k miles, on Dundee Road in Arlington Heights heading to lunch with her girlfriends at Panara. When I tore out the old brake pipe and installed copper-nickle brake pipe, I saw the design flaw. GM has the brake lines and fuel lines run along the left side of the frame. When dirt, salt, etc gets kicked up from normal driving, the salt and dirt has no where to exit. The salt then sits on top of the brake and fuel lines and rots away at the steel. Had GM used copper-nickle lines it would be many years before the pipe corroded.

So many ways for GM to EASILY prevent issues like the above- but GM must care less about their core and loyal customers. My Wife dropped me off at O'Hare airport on a Sunday while it was snowing and was hit by a driver who lost control on I90 W. The Bravada was totaled. She liked the Bravada so I did a nationwide search for a replacement, including paying for inspections of Bravadas in Phoenix and San Diego. What I found were all the Bravadas were in pissy condition, even with one owner and low mileage. A decent 2000-2001 Bravada was nowhere to be found, and the reason was they were poorly designed and unless one had a deep passion to maintain they had tons of issues. Ended up buying my wife a 2006 Acura (MDX), built 340 miles from where we currently live. Have had one issue since we bought it. Alternator failed- took about 30 minutes to replace.

I also replaced my new purchased 1991 Chevy Silverado 2500 (from Larry Roesch Chevy in Elmhurst, Il) that also had brake pipes and trans line fail, with a 2007 Ford F-350. I bought the Ford in 2007 with 10k miles (it was a manufactures vehicle and never titled). The F350 had a sensor issue under warranty- that has been it 8 years of ownership.

My GM vehicles of which I still own two always keep my weekends full with work to be done. Can't say the same for my Ford or Acura- do oil changes twice a year and that is it.

I love GM as they have been my first car and the first car for my kids- but GM does not design a car anywhere near the thought or care that the Germans, Japanese, or maybe even Ford does. All my friends with GM have like issues I have. We love the idea of GM- but they really make a poor low end product with a great paint job.

Sadly, I have to concur.
At least they've improved the paint job over the years

I love my GM car, and it has many positive attributes. However, I have to be honest, GM has received much of its flack for very good reason. Whether it's garbage interiors, awful handling dynamics, weird plastic gaskets destroying motors, or the occasional ass backwards design.

The bean counters ruined a lot of good products.. And even now it seems like they still hold the reins a little bit.

And yet for some reason, I still love GM cars because often times the value component can't be beat, nor the DIY friendliness.

Regardless, my next vehicle will be from ze Germanz. The only GM product I ever foresee myself getting in the future would be a C6 Z06.

_________________
-Car Guy Carl
"Penelope" - 2003 SLE - 247k Miles
"Sydney" - 2000 Honda S2000 - 98k miles

I wouldn't trade my old GM stuff for anything.

I don't understand what the big deal is with the bailout - what do they think their taxes are spent on normally?

_________________
Boost addict


The Fleet:
'93 SSEi - Twincharged + manual Build thread
'97 Camaro - Top swap
'05 STS - V8, AWD, her DD
'92 Trofeo - Fair weather DD
'99 Montana - top swap 3800
'04 Sierra 2500HD - LLY Duramax

Current project:
Something cool, trust me.

Upcoming projects:
'92 Bonneville SSE
'87 LeSabre T-type
'67 LeSabre

Gone to greener pastures:
'84 Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
'97 LeSabre - Top swap

RIP:
'86 LeSabre - pictures
'93 SE - L67

I respectfully disagree. But I only turned a wrench on them for a living! I too live here in the midwest! And trust me, I saw chit that make you question humanity that came in the doors... They're put together as well, and suffer from the same shortcuts as any other mainstream manufacturer... As long as a company sells stock on a stock exchange, has a board of directors, and views things from an accounting perspective first, they ALL have shortcuts as they answer to how many $/share the stock price is. And it's not that one manufacturer does it less than another... THEY ALL cut corners. GM, ford, Dodge (especially), honduh, toyota, you name it.

When someone says "Insert name of Japanese manufacturer has better quality than GM/ford/Chrysler", I remind people that that new Honda dealership up on Randall and 90, or the new Elgin Toyota, 3/4's of the building is a service department... If they make such perfect cars, why do they need such a big service department? By contrast, that little Chevy dealer I worked at was about half the building dedicated to service/parts.

As far as German or even British cars, I wouldn't own one outside of a manufacturer warranty (believe it or not there are a few I actually DO like, but not worth the dollars and not worth owning out of warranty which I would because I usually keep a car ~10 years). While they have stepped up qaulity over the past few years, they're still not there. Ask any poor Land Rover owner! They add unnecesarry complication to simple solutions. Ze Germans could complicate the simple process of making toast. Why? Just because they can. Yes, they may have nicer knobs, and richer leather compared to an Impala but they're a phucking nightmare to work on (I hated Audi's personally), you need a PhD in Nuclear Engineering to understand, along with expensive diagnostics. Parts aren't cheap and readily available either. In 10 years, that lower rent Impala will still be running and I'll be able to MacGyver it back into shape with parts from a junk yard for pennies on the dollar. They're generally easy to work on, parts are readily available, parts are cheap. Sounds like a win/win to me.

Truth be told though, it isn't always the product, it's the owner. They view their automobile as nothing more than an "appliance" much like their Kenmore refrigerator and refuse to invest anything more than they have to, to simply maintain it. Just plug it into the wall and let it run for the life of the unit. Same thing with their cars. Put gas in, do oil changes only when absolutely necessary, tires when they finally go bald, and brakes when they're eating through a rotor. Then they try and bargain with you on using cheaper or even used parts and barter with you about your labor rate. And that's being generous...

At the end of the day, no one has made a perfect car. The old saying... "if it has bits or tires, it's gonna give you problems..." is still valid (replace the "b" in bits with another letter).

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

I'll never touch anything made in Europe which doesn't have a warranty.

My previous car to this one was a Grand Am, 2.4. Hardly a paragon of automotive reliability. Yet, part of the 240,000 miles that car logged was me taking Dad to work when his shiny BMW X5 broke down, which was a lot.

That truck was a $60,000 vehicle new, but the company can't make it last longer then 40,000 miles without falling apart. That to me is way worse then anything GM has been slammed about. I think it's a mark of insanity to praise a luxury car company when their cars get beat by a 1994 Corsica in reliability.

Take the E46 M3. Dudes worship that car so much it could probably be a religion. But the subframe folds like an accordion past a certain age.10K to fix third party.

Or the 3.0 turbo engine models. Great cars so long as you keep a spare high pressure fuel pump in the trunk.

Remember the V10 M5 sedan with the S54 motor? Make sure the rod bearings aren't defective!
Even if you're lucky enough to find one with a healthy engine, make sure you've got $6,000 in the bank for when the super-fast high tech SMG trans fails .


I don't want to make it seem like I'm picking on BMW , because some brands are even worse then that. Like Land Rover.

But it's "GM" that makes "unreliable crap".

As far as interiors go, tight panel gaps make things harder when fixing stuff. Which you'll be doing a lot if your car has European ancestry.

Since the year 2000, I have only owned American cars. My '04 Dodge Dakota has 122K miles and is the best vehicle I've ever owned. Only issue I had under warranty was the driver side seat track. I've generally had good luck with GM cars, and currently have an '05 Bonneville GXP. Other than the typical Bonneville quirks, it has been a good car so far. I have an '09 Solstice GXP brand new that was burning a quart of oil every 250 miles. I finally was able to get a Dealer to diagnose it properly, and they replaced the pistons and rings under warranty which cured the problem. Other than that, it was a good car.

I agree that the bean counters running GM caused shortcuts to be made in car design and production. The Solstice used a Hummer HVAC control system which made it almost impossible to burp after replacing the engine coolant. We're all familiar with the Bonneville quirks, some of which could have been solved with a few $'s of extra parts. Now that GM has gone thru bankruptcy, it seems that the accountants aren't running the show as before, and better cars are coming out of GM.

_________________
2005 Pontiac Bonneville GXP Greystone

I don't disagree with you, but I believe that you sacrifice a little reliability to get a little bit more driving fun and ergonomics back.

_________________
-Car Guy Carl
"Penelope" - 2003 SLE - 247k Miles
"Sydney" - 2000 Honda S2000 - 98k miles

But you gotta be able to drive them first. When they're holding up a lift, hanging in the air...

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

An old post but read with interest. So many foolish consumers in America! How some love the German cars. But a year ago I read a report, that cited the ten worst and best cars produced based on insurance data, breakdown and costs of operation. The German brands VW, BMC, AUDI, COOPER, AND ONE OTHER I FORGET WERE AT THE BOTTOM TEN WORST CARS! The only German car that did not make the list
Was the Mercedes. My Bonneville's ( the 3800's) keep right on running like the bunny. Have purchased used of course one at 100,000 that now has 260,000 miles another we purchased at 190,000 that now has 258,000 another that has 100,000 and our last that I flew out and picked up from Andrew that has 42,000 miles on it STILL SMELLS NEW! We have been running these cars In our fleet for about 6 years. They are loaded with options everything still working! We have spent about $12K for all of them! We just looked at a new Buick loaded for $42,000 with a smaller engine smaller room a screen to play with. We have $30,000 in our savings and four
Cars
That just
Keep on beating the drum! We have a bet on to see which one will hit the first
300,000!
We have had the electric
Problems fixed the stupid
GM Dexron intake
Problems and maintained them.

BTW when talking with the Buick salesman I asked
If he
Had the new Buick. Nope
He
Replied
Still driving my 3800 Buick will not give it up! Smile His words were bullit proof!

I'm definitely into a lot of german cars but I know I could repair and maintain them.

I think it's hilarious when people get into an originally $50k car for $7k and expect it to be trouble free. There's a reason the price is that low out of warranty.

_________________

95 SLE... a keeper. 241k miles. Low and Slow.
97 BMW 528i
98 Infiniti vq35'd i30: 13.3@104mph, 30MPG Hwy (RIP)
02 Jag X-type
03 BMW M5
05 Chevy Cobalt LS
07 Infiniti G35s 6MT (Sold)
07 Ducati Monster S2R 800 with DS1000 swap
83 Yamaha IT175K
72 Yamaha DS7: '74 RD250 swap, JL chambers

Info on dropping a 92-99: Here.

Spot on!

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

When my wife wrecked my `97 Bonneville in October 2015, I replaced it with a 2005 Mercedes Benz S500 4-matic. Last summer we also got a 2001 Grand Prix GT that we previously owned from 2003-2010 but sold to a neighbor when we got a minivan after we had kids. The neighbor gave me back the Grand Prix GT at no cost because it had a Check Engine Light and needed work to pass smog. I spent a few thousand dollars and many hours fixing things on the Grand Prix to get it back to perfect running condition.

It's really true that the Germans can complicate things that don't need to be complicated. It really isn't necessary to motorize the closing of the trunk lid, or to vacuum-suck the doors closed that last quarter-inch. Repairs can be extremely costly, but if you're good with tools, the Mercedes is assembled with easy-to-access simple fasteners and is easy for a home-mechanic to work on. I had to repair a vacuum manifold that closes the trunk lid that last quarter-inch. The manifold is plastic and gets stress cracks over time. I fixed them with a $3 tube of plastic epoxy. Rather than replace an in-cabin air temperature sensor unit that would have cost hundreds, I removed it and replaced the *twelve cent* thermistor that had crumbled apart. Maintenance parts like the oil filter and air filters are a little more expensive, but you only change the oil every 10,000 miles, so it's kind of a wash. On the other hand, the transmission fluid cannot be changed without a bizarre process that involves punching a hole in the pan with a tool called a "violator" and using a $3000 Mercedes vacu-suck machine to extract and replace the fluid.

I expect both cars will give me many years of long and useful service, but I will say there is one tremendous difference when driving the two cars. The Grand Prix is freakishly noisy, with innumerable squeaks and rattles and groans, even though I've been aggressive about replacing broken fasteners and putting things together properly. The Mercedes Benz on the other hand is just . . . silent. It's amazing.

Replacement parts for the Grand Prix are a lot easier to find. The local Pick-n-Pull always has between 6 and 12 Grand Prix's to pull from. I've seen ONE S-class Mercedes at the same yard.

Bottom line: A quality car, properly maintained, will last a long time (if you don't wreck it). If you can do your own maintenance, you can save a lot of money.

_________________
PontiacDad at WCBF `08: "By any chance, was his name. . .Radomir?"

R.I.P. 10/31/15: 1997 SE: "Silver Shadow"
`05 Mercedes S500

No they didn't. They coat them in epoxy for the most part. I still regularly replace steel brake pipes with Copper/nickel items I fabricate myself. As does nearly every repair shop in the UK. I am baffled by the posts on USA car forums seking steel brake pipes for an old or collector car. Why aren't copper/nickel replacement line part of everyday repair work?. I don't buy the not strong enough argument btw, replacement brake pipe has to meet a British Standard of construction. I can attest that at a pinch it can be used as a temporary diesel injector pipe.

The motoring press aren't interested in popular mainstram cars, mostly if they test one it will be a sporty version that sold in tiny numbers compared to regular grocery getters. So it follows a BMW, Mercedes, or Japanese sports car will have praise heaped on them for their dynamic driving qualities, not rear seat legroom, or trunk size, or even how good the heating and air conditioning is. Let's not forget, car makers don't give a rodents behind about building a car that will go 300k+ miles over fifteen years. After maybe five or six years most cars won't see a dealer workshop, and will be maintained with aftermarket parts. The makers want you to buy a new car, not keep your old faithful on the road.

Roger.

Because the bean counters don't want anyone keeping a car longer than the warranty or ten years max.
You know they only stock parts for 10 years then rely on the aftermarket.
Another reason.........just like why they hate Trump........it doesn't support the Liberal Capitalist agenda.
I can't buy copper/nickel pipe where I live. Not supported by trade agreements......

_________________

2000 SSEi - SilverBullet - 78,000 kms, 4" "straight shot" custom headlight ram air inlet, TOGs, 1.9's, Lsd, 2.9-3.4"MPS 10-15 psi, Ported GenV, EGR eliminated, OR pushrods, oil volume kit, trani cooler & shift kit, Titanium retainers, 90 lb springs, 160 Stat, 42# injectors, Fuel pump voltage increase, Wideband O2, 3" to dual 2 1/2" Magnaflows, Snow Meth/water injection, after SC temp gauge, 255/50WR17, timing commander set 15-18*@WOT, 2 speed Fan over-ride, disabled DRL, Solid motor mount, Meziere Electric water pump, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, Drilled & slotted rotors/ceramics, GXP sway bars and STB, Upgraded and rebuilt transmission with ZZP 2500 rpm stall TC, Pioneer Bluetooth stereo with sub and 800 W amps, PB 13.5 quarter, (April 2014 car of the month)