So after installing a K&N intake my dad started raising up a storm saying there is no reason for it. What do you guys think? He says that the only thing you're getting is a better filter that potentially has better air flow because it is more porous and can let more dust in. He claimed that the air was already coming from beyond the fender wall and the stock air box was designed to the specs of the TB. Adding more air won't matter if only so much can be sucked in.

_________________
-Mike
2006 Saab 9-3 SportCombi
-17x8 OZ Racing Superleggera wheels- -GReddy Exhaust- -K&N Panel filter- Tinted Windows- -Blacked out side markers-
Tune coming soon

2000 Bonneville SLE - Totalled

The stock airbox has a lot of restrictions, and still is sucking in more hot air than a fenderwell intake will.

From my personal experience with the intake:

I saw a drop in IAT temps, increased throttle response, some have mentioned improved MPG, although the way I drive I'd never notice that hahaha, and the fact that you can actually HEAR your engine after installing it when you put your foot down makes it worth it to me. For the price they cost, they're definitely worth it.

As far as sucking in more dust, no way. The K&N filters are oiled, and when properly done, they catch just as much dust and debris as a standard filter would. The gains from this mod have been proved multiple times on this forum, and are definitely worth it!

_________________



Joseph

Current: 2013 Infiniti G37 Journey
1999 Infiniti G20T - Sold
1999 Buick Lesabre - Race Couch - gone but not forgotten

It's not the filter. K&N filters don't flow any better than a paper filter. The benefit of them is that you buy them once and keep cleaning/re-oiling them instead of replacing them constantly over the life you own the vehicle. I did dyno runs with my Camaro back in the day, same intake setup, back to back pulls, the only difference between the two was me swapping out the paper filter for a K&N on the second run. First run with the paper filter was 318rwhp, second run with the K&N was 316rwhp. Neglible difference and the tolerance of a small amount of potential heat soak between the two runs within the minute or so it took to swap out.

The issue lies in the intake plumbing of the vehicle. Your stock intake, which consists of a snorkel, airbox, and then a flexible runner from the airbox to the TB, is a compromise of space, intake noise abatement (I.E. all the baffling and air silencers), in the case of the Bonneville, storage for the PCM, Secondary A.I.R. pump inlet, and small diameter plumbing with lots of turbulent surfaces (the inside of the flexible tubing isn't condusive for optimum airflow). In another words, it isn't setup with performance in mind. Rather a blend of performance, reliability, quietness, servicability, and protection for the PCM. About the ONLY good thing the stock airbox does well, is help isolate the incoming air from heat.

So by installing a FWI, you pretty much eliminate all this restriction. This is where you get the benefit. Not the filter. A FWI or CAI isn't going to be a HP adder. Which it does is allow the engine to breath easier, which in turn allows it to make more power.

And since I have some form of air intake on every vehicle I have (even had one on the RGC that I fabbed up at one point), you can determine my feelings on them.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Well I did notice the throttle response but I thought...it's really for the filter. The air getting sucked in is going so fast the warm engine bay has little to no affect on the air temp. I love the throaty sound of the motor and I did take a trip up north and back 370MI getting 32 MPG AVG

_________________
-Mike
2006 Saab 9-3 SportCombi
-17x8 OZ Racing Superleggera wheels- -GReddy Exhaust- -K&N Panel filter- Tinted Windows- -Blacked out side markers-
Tune coming soon

2000 Bonneville SLE - Totalled

Slightly off topic but still relevant. My FWI heat soaks like mad. Sometimes I see 50-60 degrees over ambient. Better than the stock box which was always above 100*. But nonetheless that's something to worry about pending future modifications.

Anyone ever addressed the issue? Or am I the only one who has it?

_________________
-Car Guy Carl
"Penelope" - 2003 SLE - 247k Miles
"Sydney" - 2000 Honda S2000 - 98k miles

Lane I see where you are coming from with the restriction aspect. I thought the K&N's flowed a little better though... The one thing I am worried about is my PCM being less protected

_________________
-Mike
2006 Saab 9-3 SportCombi
-17x8 OZ Racing Superleggera wheels- -GReddy Exhaust- -K&N Panel filter- Tinted Windows- -Blacked out side markers-
Tune coming soon

2000 Bonneville SLE - Totalled

It's kinda like guys who buy Silverstars thinking that they're going to see farther, longer, and better, because of the marketing campaign and that the desired higher kelvin rating translates into better visibility (which it doesn't... Lumen output determines that), that you're psychologically thinking you're getting better throttle response and better MPG. Individual results may vary, and you may get a slight benefit, but trust me, your butt-o-meter isn't that highly calibrated to determine the difference.

The big gain will be replacing the restrictive stock plumbing... THEN you'll notice throttle response.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Again;

Paper Fram: 318rwhp
K&N oilable: 316rwhp

Taking out heatsoak, I'd say they're pretty step in step with one another. Done on a DynoJet 248C with a '98 LS1, using an LS1 Motorsports CAI (the equivalent of a FWI for Bonneville's).

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Did you install a real FWI, or are you confusing the K&N FIPK acronym?

I ran a K&N on my Monte for a while, hated it. It heat-soaked like mad and made my car pull a lot of timing.

It was nice to not have the stock restrictive box, but on a summer day if I wasn't on the highway, I was easily about 60 degrees above ambient temp.

Don't worry about your PCM, it can handle it fine. Mine has been exposed for over 6 years now.

_________________

CSC Powered 2000 Monte Carlo SS - Project Car
2013 Camaro 1LS - Daily Driver
1968 Camaro SS - Show Car

Yea, that's the one GOOD thing the stock airbox does, eliminate that heatsoak and/or ingestion of hot underhood air which can pull timing (as you noted), as well as possibly inducing a lean code.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

PCM is completely weather proof.

I have a 9 inch K&N cone with the standard INTENSE piping and adapter. On a 80-90 degree day my intake temps are in the 130s. It's god awful.

I also have no lower front splash shield, in effect my cone sits out in the open.

_________________
-Car Guy Carl
"Penelope" - 2003 SLE - 247k Miles
"Sydney" - 2000 Honda S2000 - 98k miles

It'll be hard to take out any heat on an 80* - 90* day. But fab up a wall between the intake and the radiator area, and that should help.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

The stock airbox is designed more with NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness), ease of assembly and service in mind. Very little thought is given to the actual performance (good or bad) on a production car. Look in the stock airbox and system, and you'll see where the issues are. Your dad is dead wrong.

My FWI heat-soaked in town (guessing that's most of what Carl does?) but once I got above 45 MPH my IAT's dropped right back to +/- 10°F above ambient. It's all about getting more clean, cool air flowing into the filter.

_________________
Bye Bye:

RIP sandrock

Ain't that the truth, look at all of this extra crap on my stock Camaro set-up just to keep noice down.



Fixed that with a ColdAirInductions brand CAI

_________________

CSC Powered 2000 Monte Carlo SS - Project Car
2013 Camaro 1LS - Daily Driver
1968 Camaro SS - Show Car

My V is pretty bad too. The aftermarket setup nearly doubles the CFM of airflow vs. the stocker. In particular was the runner that ran down the drivers side of the intercooler, that sleeved down to about 1" in diameter.

Stock (not the greatest pic, but part #854)


What is on there now;

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Yeah, the G8's are bad too. I don't have a picture, but that thing had chambers that ran the whole width of the radiator. The RotoFab kit solved that problem!

_________________
- Greg | -- Project Prasinos -- |

1995 LeSabre Custom: 312K Miles | Custom K&N CAI | Edelbrock SDT Muffler | Camaro Tips | 180 T-stat | LED Interior
& Exterior | 20% Tint | PA Grill & Portholes | Limited Trim | GTP Rims | Ported LIM | Plus Many More Mods | Restoration Thread
2001 Bonneville SSEi: 225K Miles | Instense FWI | Intense MPS (3.4") | 180 T-stat | ZZP Plog | Ported Rear Manifold |
ZZP 3" Downpipe | Magnaflow Cat | Retrofitted HIDs | GenV M90 | GXP Brake Upgrade | 35% Tint | Plus Many More Mods |
2005 Bonneville GXP: 101K Miles | Custom FWI
2009 G8 GT: 89K Miles | 35% Tint | Roto-Fab CAI | SOLO Mach Exhaust | BMR Tunnel Brace | BMR Sub Frames | BMR STB |
Kooks Headers | QTP Electric Cutouts | BMR Sway Bars | Elite Engineering Catch Can | Innovative Dual Wideband Kit
1984 Caprice Classic Wagon: 86K Miles | Restoration Project

Having more airflow across the filter (law of diminishing returns applies) means that there is less of a pressure differential across the filter and thus more air can get in the cylinders. The air filters on the '92+ Bonnevilles are actually sized fairly well, dare I say sized correctly, for the demand. So we don't really see the gains from a higher-flowing filter. But compared to something like the older '86 filter, which is roughly half the size feeding the same displacement, you'd see more of a difference.

My dad's '02 Yukon 8.1L is an example of an undersized filter. Putting the K&N on it got him about .5mpg fwy I think, he saw more increases / variation between grades of fuel than the filter gained, but it really opened up the top end; above 4600rpm.

_________________
Boost addict


The Fleet:
'93 SSEi - Twincharged + manual Build thread
'97 Camaro - Top swap
'05 STS - V8, AWD, her DD
'92 Trofeo - Fair weather DD
'99 Montana - top swap 3800
'04 Sierra 2500HD - LLY Duramax

Current project:
Something cool, trust me.

Upcoming projects:
'92 Bonneville SSE
'87 LeSabre T-type
'67 LeSabre

Gone to greener pastures:
'84 Sierra Classic - Twin turbo 3800
'97 LeSabre - Top swap

RIP:
'86 LeSabre - pictures
'93 SE - L67

This reminds me I need to make an intake for the 8.1 still. there is a section where the pipe literally halves the size to form around the radiator fan.

_________________

-Austin-
1988 LE, Intercooled L67 loading......

2000 SSEi R.I.P. Dead now :( INTENSE FWI, polished LIM, P&P supercharger, custom radiator, standalone trans cooler, trans-go shift kit (donating to the 88)

2002 2500HD Silverado with the 8.1 Vortec and Alison tranny. Likes to eat GT Mustangs and lots of tires, and all while stock!

Volant makes one too. I had it on my 8.1. I remember that reduction on the stock intake.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck