Reading this may suck. It's just to catch up everyone. If you'd like, ask questions before reading too much, and I'll be happy to catch you up. Scroll past this giant archive of stuff to get to the meat of the topic.
radomirthegreat wrote:
Hello, everyone. I have a lot of questions in my mind and a lot of diagrams to draw out. For now, I'm going to drill my dash and put in about four ON-OFF-ON switches. I've got all new fuse panels and buss fuses. Here's my list of items from O'Reilly Auto Parts:
Flashers:
Four 552 flashers; two terminals; two to six bulbs
Toggle switches:
Two 85919
Two 95901
Two 85905
Panel lights:
Two 85939; amper lights
Fuses:
Two 8202-4 fuse blocks; fits four 1.25" × 0.25" fuses
One five-pack of 10A fuses
One five-pack of 15A fuses
One sealed 60A starter button; 85984
Crimp connectors:
100-pack of 85496 16-14GA female quick disconnects
100-pack of 85498 16-14GA butt connectors
8 Feet of 0.25" heat shrink tubing, black
Wires:
100 feet of PW14Y 14GA yellow wire
100 feet of PW14B 14GA black wire
That, over two hours at the store, six sheets of pad paper filled with plans, and at most two more days. That's all. My 94 SSEi will run again with all the lights fully functional! I'm excited! :D This will be my giant thread that will have just electrical questions. I'm going to draw some proper diagrams, and I'll be right back as soon as I'm done. Lots of questions coming up, so brace yourselves.
For now, could you please let me know where in the Rice Zone repair manual I can find the fuse panel numbers and their respective purposes? Either that, or let me know the fuse numbers for every single bulb on the outside of the car. That would be phenomenal. Thanks a lot!
radomirthegreat wrote:
I guess I shouldn't list what I just bought when I ran out to some stores after that post... I'll do it anyway!
Rice Zone:
A pack of an unknown quantity of 16-14gA ring terminal crimp connectors; 85407
New crimper/stripper too with some terminals; 86690
Sylvania 1157A ST amber bulbs.
From Wal Mart:
5 piece Black & Decker hole saw kit... It's a Value Pack!
Scosche wiring kit
Power distribution block
In-line fuse holder w/100A fuse
14ft 5GA wire
6ft 9GA wire
4ft 9GA wire
17ft remote wire
Two 17ft audio cables
Pre-terminated power wire
Two packs of assorted crimp connectors for 16-14GA wires.
The diagrams are coming along fairly nicely. If (when) all of this comes together, I'll be able to put my car back to one piece with shiny, new bumpers and all electronics a-go!
Is there a wiring diagram for the brake pedal relay?
radomirthegreat wrote:
I've been having these wiring problems since September, and no one can figure it out. A year before September, in the fall of 06, I had my Bonneville all over the place for people to fix all these little things. The cost was tremendous just for each place to give an estimate and put some labor toward figuring it all out. I've been posting here and on another Forum every now and then, and I haven't really been able to find out much. This is a safe workaround because I have changed my mind and have decided not to remove the OE goods. Well, maybe the OE wires. They're sticky... This is a good way to get my car off the jack stands and back on the road.
radomirthegreat wrote:
I'm bidding on some FSMs on eBay. Considering the cost of all this today, I'm ready to win an auction. Some things may be returned, but the good thing is that I bought all this while keeping in mind how I'll repurpose it later. I do have to agree at least that it costs too much. One good thing I got out of it was "free" stuff from Auto Zone using from using my card points.
radomirthegreat wrote:
• When I accelerate, the left turn signal indicator turns on while all turn signal bulbs are actually off.
• The left turn signal is much slower.
• The lights on the trunk lid do not work at all.
• All the tail lights not on the trunk lid are at 6.34V instead of the car's normal voltage.
• One headlight also works at half voltage, and so do both fog lights.
• I can't turn off the fog lights when they're at half voltage. The switch is totally ineffective.
• The dash lights stay off until I pull out the headlight switch. No matter if it's day or night, the auto lights do not at all control the dash.
• Both left and right positions of the AL7 seat controls only control the driver's side seat. The passenger seat does not move at all.
• Some buttons for the seat controls do the same thing as others while some buttons do nothing.
There are numerous other things, but I seem to have forgotten them. I'll keep the list going as I remember more.
radomirthegreat wrote:
Technical Ted wrote:
1st thing I would do is find the Lamp Monitor Control Module (not to be confused with Lamp Control Module). Remove all 3 connectors and check for corrosion. If no corrosion is found then connect a fused (10 amp) wire from the positive battery terminal to each pin on the C1 connector. See if the corresponding light bulb works correctly.
Wow, I lost the FSM auction by $1! This is awful.
So, the lamp monitor control module... I've been wondering about this one. Where do I find it?
radomirthegreat wrote:
Technical Ted wrote:
You're asking for trouble.
Yes I am. I expect a fuse to blow out and kill the lights. It's a horrible idea, but it's relatively much better than taking out the dash 5 days before the fines come rolling in. It's time to get it to move, and I don't want to run the car with the left turn signal going haywire. I sincerely appreciate all the PDFs, pictures, and advice so far. It's agreeably much, much better than what I'm planning, but also will take more time. When my garage's construction equipment gets cleaned up, I'm going to do it all the right way.
radomirthegreat wrote:
Ever had a bad module? Let's say that I shove a metal object straight into a bulb socket and then hit the lights. Before the fuse blows out, would the module go bad? Can it go bad all at once from any cause? I remember the day I got my shiny wheels and replacement windshield washer fluid reservoir was when the Bonneville started acting up.
Because I think that taking apart the dash is too much work at the moment, I could at least take the module but pass on the labor for the time being. I want more than anyone to fix the wiring issue properly, but it just takes too much time for one person who's never taken apart a Bonneville dash.
Sandrock, PM me about the module. I probably still have your PayPal info from the shifter knob.
radomirthegreat wrote:
I'm going to dig up this old one. Yep... Time to go back to helping out with this sack of electrical issues. I have a few questions about the stock electronic components as the deal is that I can have fun with electronics while I attempt to reach OE again.
When I give a turn signal, what's the flashing system? If I increase the load, like with a grounded out positive line, would it flash slowly?
Where can I find OE ohms for the 1157, 1156, and 194 exterior light bulb sockets? Or - I would like someone here to do an ohm test on said light bulb sockets on his or her own 92-95 SSE/SSEi. Pretty, pretty please.
Could someone please provide me with a wiring diagram for the ELC compressor and the module thingie that controls it? < - It's ok... I'm not screwing up the ELC.
I need also a wiring diagram for the windshield washer fluid level sensor, headlight washer pump, and windshield washer pump. If you can since it's in the same area, please find for me the gas canister wiring diagram. This is probably the first thing I'll fix, but it's last because of importance. Basically, I need wire colors and where the wires end up going from the connectors.
Thanks a lot! :D
EDIT: I got some wiring diagrams via PM. They're very helpful. Still, any more input is awesome. I'd still like some ohms.
radomirthegreat wrote:
willwren wrote:
Radomir, you're tackling this without an FSM? :?
It's not cool to be asking for so much help when you should have had the resources before starting.
On the bulbs, is there a reason you can't check them yourself? Don't tell me you don't have a meter, either?
I do have a multimeter, but the ohms I'd like to find out aren't of the bulbs but rather the bulb sockets, if that makes any sense... I'm looking any way I can to find some short somewhere. I did find the positive wire of the passenger side fog lamp was fallen out and dangling, so I cut, stripped, crimped, heatshrunk, and taped it to make sure it stays.
I keep trying on eBay to get an FSM, but I guess I'm not a good bidder. I found one more set. I will win this auction. I keep trying the bid at the last second maneuver, but it seems everyone else does, too.
radomirthegreat wrote:
That's a fantastic point. If I don't win the auction that ends in about 8 hours, which no one here must bid on for the sake of my car (:shock: <-puppy eyes), then I'll buy the manual from Helm. Thank you for that great link! *Bookmarked*
EDIT
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Got one on eBay for $64.99 + $10 for shipping. Not the cheapest I've seen, but this is awesome! It's up in Michigan, so I should get it very, very soon. I'm going to do cosmetic touchups while waiting. Tail lights!
radomirthegreat wrote:
Bugsi wrote:
radomirthegreat wrote:
the ohms I'd like to find out aren't of the bulbs but rather the bulb sockets, if that makes any sense... I'm looking any way I can to find some short somewhere.
That actually does not make any sense. Bulb sockets are sockets. They are connection points from a wire that goes hot when the light is on, and the other terminal which should be grounded. There is nothing to "ohm" between them, other than to confirm that the ground pin is grounded. Then you'd use the voltmeter to confirm that you get 12 volts on the signal pin when the light is supposed to be on.
Why are you trying to find a short? A short circuit will either blow a fuse instantly, or cause your wiring to catch fire. Are you having either of those symptoms?
I haven't blown any fuses or had any wires catch on fire. But then what explains the rear exterior lights working at 6.3V and sometimes the passenger side headlight and both fog lamps working at a similar voltage?
Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. I've read about LEDs and other bulbs blowing the lamp monitor, and some here have blamed that very thing. I should probably be asking which resistance the lamp monitor expects so I can make sure all the bulb sockets are in working order and not doing something strange either within the sockets or along the wires.
radomirthegreat wrote:
Bugsi wrote:
Yes, I think you are looking at it the wrong way, which is why I jumped in and asked.
If you haven't blown a fuse or had a wiring fire, then you don't have a short circuit. Open circuits and corroded connections are far more common and less dangerous anyway. I think you're dealing with open circuits/corrosion rather than short circuits. Open circuits won't light up at all, so it sounds even more like a corrosion problem, but might still be something else.
Q: What do you mean when you say that some of your lights are "working at 6.3 volts." ?
Measure the voltage at the light socket with a voltmeter without a bulb in it. Is that what is 6.3 volts? If your lighting circuits are putting out 6.3 volts instead of 12, then that doesn't constitute "working".
If you mean "I put a 6.3 volt bulb instead of a 12 volt bulb in the socket, and it lights up, but when I put a 12 volt bulb in the socket, it does not light up" -then that doesn't constitute "working" either.
You asked "what resistance does the lamp monitor expect?" I have no idea what you're looking for with respect to this question. Your lamps should all be standard replacement parts that you can get at any automotive parts store. Use the factory standard replacement bulb for each location, THAT is what the lamp monitor expects. That is, go to a parts store, buy whatever GE or Sylvania or whatever brand they sell replacement lamp is supposed to be in your turn signals, backup lights, headlights, etc. Don't use 6.3 volt bulbs in your car, or any bulb that isn't supposed to go there. If you just use the right lamps for your car, you'll have the correct "whatever your lamp monitor expects." If they don't light up, then you can troubleshoot the remaining components involved, because THAT is where the problem will be. Fix the problem, not the symptom, okay? Use the right lamps, not 6.3 volt lamps.
In general, lamps are not defined by a resistance, lamps are conductors, so by their nature they form a short circuit. Different lengths/thicknesses of tungsten or whatever will provide various levels of light when the lamp is driven with a certain voltage. Your car lamps are built to light up at 12 volts. You probably won't get any useful information measuring the resistance of lightbulbs.
Your lighting circuits probably don't even care too much what resistance your bulbs are. If you used some sort of aftermarket lamp that draws low current but lights up appropriately at 12 volts (like say, an LED), your lamp monitor will probably care less. What we're interested in here is the ability of your lighting circuits to provide 12 volts to the lamp, which should draw whatever current is typical for the stock lamp. Drawing less current is okay, drawing more is not okay.
Your problem is probably located in the lamp monitor control module, or else it is probably corrosion of electrical terminals and/or conductors somewhere or in multiple locations. (A dead battery, for example, will cause your lamps to not operate, but that's typically a more obvious cause.) Go back to the diagram posted in the first page and do what is suggested: Check the connectors for corrosion, run a fused test wire that can handle up to 10 amps from the battery, and individually drive those pins to see if the lamps light up correctly (when using the correct bulbs!).
[EDIT]: Check the main grounding blocks under the driver and passenger front seat carpets. For all the electrical problems you have, I think you should check that first.
http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/kb.php?mode=article&k=102Also, can you provide any idea why any of this might be happening? Did your car suffer flood damage, was it owned by a ricer who put neon lights all over it, was it involved in a major accident, did aliens abduct it in a high-energy particle beam, or what?
-Mark
Big post! Thanks. I'll address it the best I can, and let me know if I've missed anything.
I also blame corrosion rather than shorting out, but the thing is that I saw my windshield washer fluid reservoir's bolt sticking through a wire loom, and taking that out and shaking it made the headlights not act strangely. I've taken apart that wire loom since then, but it seems no wire is broken. I just assumed I have a very lightly shorted circuit somewhere based on the bolt going through the wire loom.
The rear lights are working at 6.34V because that's what the multimeter tells me. The OE 12V bulbs do not burn brightly, and people can't see my car's tail lights. I'm not using 6.3V bulbs. Perhaps they'd work, though.
The lamps do not light up all the way, and I'd like to make sure the wires going to the bulbs are all right by checking the resistance of the bulb circuits. I asked earlier if turn signal flashers blink more slowly with increased resistance. If that's true, I'm having a problem with my left turn signal because it blinks EXTREMELY slowly sometimes. I am shown by my dashboard that I have my left turn signal lamp constantly on at WOT, too.
I've bought a brand new battery and all new 4GA wires for everything. I have a brand new alternator as well. I tested the battery voltage, and it's at 12V. The alternator bumps up the measured voltage to ~ 13-14V. Unfortunately, the rear lights don't see this voltage. What's also strange is that leaving a battery in my car overnight almost kills it. I can charge the battery with my trickle charger, hook it up, and crank the engine for a split second before it starts right up and runs strongly. However, if the car's left like that, the next day it just won't start. The thing is that there's no empirically quantifiable measurement of battery drain that I've found. Simply, any battery I install goes from being great to being nothing.
There's a ring terminal screwed into the side of the chassis that goes to a block with many wires connecting to it. That's the grounding block you're referring to? I have one on each side. The ring terminals are not corroded, and I recently cleaned the grounding blocks as well. I'm aware I had water in my car, but even with all this rain recently, the water is not leaking in anymore. I had this weird voltage issue even before my carpet was wet, so I don't believe my wet carpet is connected to corrosion of the grounding blocks. August 07, I had a brand new carpet from stockinteriors.com, and the lighting issues were already there. November 07 is when one window inexplicably opened while the car was off during a snow storm, and that's where the water came from.
When I bought my car, it had up until then only had engine rebuilds and a rear tweeter replacement and relocation to the B pillars. That's out now. Aside from that, I'm not aware of any "ricing" done to my car... Aside from my baby blue engine bay that is now being changed over. I ran a 4GA wire to the back to power speaker amplifiers for rear deck speakers and subwoofers. I'm redoing that now to include more amplifiers for more interior speakers. Not going for loudness or anything - just quality. I grounded it all out to the "frame" of the car, and it didn't otherwise touch the electrical system.
radomirthegreat wrote:
Thanks for working on this with me!
The amps are completely out of the car, and I don't think I'm going to install them until I get everything just right. Even the radio is out of the dash, and I've pulled the rear speaker wires.
I'll take some pictures and measure some more voltages, and I'll be back. Thank you for the advice. The battery is out of my car and on a trickle charger at the moment. It's been raining outside, so I'll go back out tomorrow and continue working.
radomirthegreat wrote:
I've replaced all these wires:
battery - starter
battery - ground
battery - fuse panel
battery - alternator
some other ground cables
radomirthegreat wrote:
All the positive wires except for one are brand new, fully copper wires with the connectors pre-crimped. I got them at Advanced Auto Parts. The wire that goes to the fuse panel is non-oxygenated aluminum Monster brand wire.
All the ground wires are fully copper and also bought from Advance, but they are attached to top post terminals at one end. I bought a dual terminal 75 battery and did a NAPA charging post conversion thingie so that I effectively have dual top posts. The connectors are now clamps like Ford models.
I should probably point out that I had the electrical issue before when I had corroded battery cables all over the place. I changed out all the wires, the battery (three times) and the alternator, and the problem persisted.
radomirthegreat wrote:
What's the difference between non-GM precrimped wires and GM OE? I put in the Monster wire because I ran out of wires, but I'll change that out to OE. I noticed the OE wire has a cool neck on it that connects to the fuse panel, so I'll see if I can get it. I again don't have the shared digital camera, but I'd love to take some pictures of all this to show you how it looks.
Are you sure this could be causing the problem if nothing changed when I swapped out all the battery wires, the alternator, and three batteries? I assume you're making the point that these wires work as well as factory corroded wires, right?
radomirthegreat wrote:
I got the FSMs in today! :D
My battery has been on my trickle charger at 2A for over a week. I believe that should do it. The battery was on a chair in my living room.
T he factory wires have aluminum heads and are thin copper. These wires I have are all 4GA wires with really thick and juicy insulation. They're WAY thicker than stock. The connectors are aluminum wrapped around copper wires sticking out from the crimp from under the wire sheath. I don't like the Monster wire, either, and I will replace it as soon as I find the need to power up my 94.
I went with these wires because as I've said before, I've had the electrical problems with my OE wires. The connectors were only corroded on the metal parts that were exposed, but the connections were clean. I switched to these thick wires thinking it would solve the problems, but it didn't. I'd really rather not switch back to OE to see if that changes anything since I already know how my car runs with them - the same.
It's not like I riced up my car with neon battery wires and weird lights all over the place. I did everything really well in about October. I think I posted about the electrical issues first in late August, and that was maybe a week or so into the problems. My friend's dad let me park my car in his clean and heated garage so I could work on the electrical issue. I found absolutely no corrosion on the grounding blocks by the driver and passenger seats, and I found some corrosion on the OE wires. I replaced all those, but nothing changed.
I then started my car as usual and drove it home with my friend's dad following me and carefully watching the half-voltage tail lights. The car has been here since about December, and I haven't driven it except to move it around on the driveway. It runs fine except for some weird oil pressure issue which happens every 2000 miles and may recur in the next 1000. If you really, honestly, truly believe that going to OE wires will absolutely help troubleshoot some case that has not changed during a change from OE to Advance Auto Parts, I'll do it.
radomirthegreat wrote:
Bugsi wrote:
radomirthegreat wrote:
If you really, honestly, truly believe that going to OE wires will absolutely help troubleshoot some case that has not changed during a change from OE to Advance Auto Parts, I'll do it.
I really, honestly, truly believe that going to OE wires will absolutely help troubleshoot your electrical issues. If you can't get back to OE supply wiring, it makes no sense to attempt further troubleshooting.
I'd also like to know the answer to my earlier question: Do you have access to the lighting control module? Once you have proper supply cabling, you will need to test the lighting control module and test voltages to find where your voltage drops from 12 to 6.3 volts.
But seriously, go back to OE supply wiring before attempting to go any further. We're not just saying this because we like to hear ourselves rant. Some of us have a H*** of a lot of electronics know-how. We know how to troubleshoot an electrical circuit. Others around here are literally experts on Bonnevilles. If you're going to ask us for advice and we advise you, it's seriously to your benefit if you take the advice.
If you just wanted people to agree with your ideas about testing the resistance of light bulb sockets, I think you'll need to find a different group.
You got it. No more questioning the big guys.
1337ssei came over today, and we decided that because the FSMs came in yesterday, we'd go through the wires and see what we need to look for in the FSMs for troubleshooting. I noticed we should look at the driver's side frontmost wiring and the wires that go into the trunk as well as any grounds. These wires were just gently handled. The other lights work just fine, so I was set there.
I took out my battery and reinstalled it, and what do you know? It works! I'm having a lot of issues getting the DIC to recognize I have working lights. It has the entire front set of lights highlighted and some rear lights. I happened to unplug my hood sensor, and the hood was up anyway, so the DIC was lit up like a Christmas tree. The left turn signal doesn't work any more slowly than the right one anymore, so that's dandy.
These problems have a high chance of coming back. I'm going to have to go back to OE wiring to keep checking up on the wires. Without this forum, I wouldn't have thought of doing that. Thanks for the tip.