Hey guys,

Decided I would pull the rear seat out, and check for water under the carpet. Sure enough, I founds some... No puddles, but the rubber backing is wet and there is some rust beginning on the floor. I had the door panels off recently to replace the speakers, and the door seals were fine, so it must be the sunroof drains that are not working properly.

As I understand, there are 4 drain points. 2 in the front and 2 in the back. Do I need to remove the seats and the carpet to get at them?

Thanks

The sunroof drains are a very likely cause so look in the Techinfo area for harofreak00's write-up on the repair. The front ones are usually the problem but are also the most difficult. Rear is accessible by simply pulling out the trim panels in the trunk. If your car is anything like mine, door water deflectors and sunroof drains are only the start of your misery. In addition to these I also had body plugs in the floor pan that were leaking and body seams on both the floor pan and firewall. I had to remove the entire dash assembly to have that one fixed and solving these doesn't even touch the problems you can have in the trunk should you ever find water there. The one nice thing is that I can have my entire dash out in about an hour. GM seems to have done a really lousy job of seam sealing. Just yesterday I saw a new dirty water trail from a seam in the trunk directly behind the right hand tail light. The car goes back to the body shop Wednesday.

_________________


Bose Luxury Sound System w/Touch Screen Navigation, Addition of Factory XM, 2005 MY Antenna, OnStar Upgrade (3G),
RainSense Wipers, Backup Camera, '00 Style Door Panel Courtesy Lights, Heated Washer Solvent, 2X Remote Trunk Release,
Turn Signal Mirrors, Center Console Courtesy Lamp, Rear Outboard Heated Seats, PVD Chrome 18" Factory Rims, Upgraded
Carbon Fibre Appearance Interior Trim, Highly Modified Main Body Harness, Instrument Panel, Door, Door Panel & Headliner
Wiring Harnesses, Custom Fuse Box & Tire and Loading Information Decals, Additional Acoustic Insulation

I just read both yours and harofreak00's threads. Looks like I could be in for quite a bit of work to find and fix the issue. I am going to take out the seats and the carpet today. I will post some pictures of what I find. Hopefully the guy doing the seam sealing on my GXP was not the same guy that did yours. LOL!

Everyone has had this issue it seems. Fairly common on these cars and fairly well written up on here.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

I now have all of the seats and the carpets out. The passenger side rear drain was disconnected inside the trunk. It is now reconnected and I put some tie straps on both sides. There was surprisingly, no water in the trunk. Perhaps there is a small gap somewhere, where it leaks out... not sure.

As for the front drains, the passenger side seems to be fine, however the drivers side is leaking inside the car. I tested both sides by pouring a cup of water by each drain hole on the sunroof.

What I can't seem to find, is the routing for the front drain holes. I have the trim off and can see where it heads down behind the dash, but beyond there I'm lost. Thanks for your help!

Here are a few pictures. Luckily, my floor has very little rust on it.

The fronts drain out just behind the front wheel wells (If you pull back the plastic shrouding).

Usually when water gets into the trunk, it goes into the spare tire well, and this is due to the sealing around the windows, not so much the sunroof. Albeit that's not always 100% true.

To test sunroof drains, I have someone stand outside with a garden hose and spray the car like a torrential downpour.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Here is a picture of the connection (with my dash out). This is basically down to the left of the park brake pedal assembly. This is what always comes apart. I've repaired it with a spring clip typically used on hoses connected to a radiator overflow container. The two threaded studs you see (two of three total) are actually to hold the park brake assembly in place.

_________________


Bose Luxury Sound System w/Touch Screen Navigation, Addition of Factory XM, 2005 MY Antenna, OnStar Upgrade (3G),
RainSense Wipers, Backup Camera, '00 Style Door Panel Courtesy Lights, Heated Washer Solvent, 2X Remote Trunk Release,
Turn Signal Mirrors, Center Console Courtesy Lamp, Rear Outboard Heated Seats, PVD Chrome 18" Factory Rims, Upgraded
Carbon Fibre Appearance Interior Trim, Highly Modified Main Body Harness, Instrument Panel, Door, Door Panel & Headliner
Wiring Harnesses, Custom Fuse Box & Tire and Loading Information Decals, Additional Acoustic Insulation

That helps... Thanks. Pulling the inner plastic fender exposes the very end of the drain hose, but not the connection.

Once your carpet is completely dry and ready to go back in, take a cloth and bucket of water with cleaner (I used Mr. Clean) and wipe down all the accessible sheet metal to basically factory new. This way if water comes back, you may see water trails helping to identify the source. Also, if you're going to repair the left side drain you should do the right while everything is apart. Often it's only a matter of time before they both separate.

_________________


Bose Luxury Sound System w/Touch Screen Navigation, Addition of Factory XM, 2005 MY Antenna, OnStar Upgrade (3G),
RainSense Wipers, Backup Camera, '00 Style Door Panel Courtesy Lights, Heated Washer Solvent, 2X Remote Trunk Release,
Turn Signal Mirrors, Center Console Courtesy Lamp, Rear Outboard Heated Seats, PVD Chrome 18" Factory Rims, Upgraded
Carbon Fibre Appearance Interior Trim, Highly Modified Main Body Harness, Instrument Panel, Door, Door Panel & Headliner
Wiring Harnesses, Custom Fuse Box & Tire and Loading Information Decals, Additional Acoustic Insulation

Found it... I removed the parking brake pedal, and then cut a flap in the rubber behind it, exposing the connection. Sure enough it was just hanging there... WHY THE %^#%$@%$ GM would not put some type of clamp on that connection is beyond me! I slid it back on, and put a tie wrap on it. Now for the passenger side.

The carpet is drying in the sun as I type this.

BTW... It turns out I am getting paid to do this. I must have found about $15 worth of loose change!

Cost. Everything is done the cheapest possible way for mass production.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

They put tie wraps on the hoses that attach to the sunroof. 6 more would cost them pennies for each vehicle. This car was over $50K when it was new. Doesn't make any sense to me... Unless GM doesn't want its previous customers to buy GM for their next new vehicle.

Everything is back together. Hopefully the floor will stay dry now. Don't want to have to tear that all apart again.

Thanks for your help guys!

I'm surprised your carpet is already dry enough to put back in. I've always had to leave them in the sun a couple of days because of how dense the foam is...

As for the connection, GM used some type of adhesive. Over time it lets go. I agree they should have used a clip or tie wrap but that probably would have cost an extra 3/100 of a cent.

_________________


Bose Luxury Sound System w/Touch Screen Navigation, Addition of Factory XM, 2005 MY Antenna, OnStar Upgrade (3G),
RainSense Wipers, Backup Camera, '00 Style Door Panel Courtesy Lights, Heated Washer Solvent, 2X Remote Trunk Release,
Turn Signal Mirrors, Center Console Courtesy Lamp, Rear Outboard Heated Seats, PVD Chrome 18" Factory Rims, Upgraded
Carbon Fibre Appearance Interior Trim, Highly Modified Main Body Harness, Instrument Panel, Door, Door Panel & Headliner
Wiring Harnesses, Custom Fuse Box & Tire and Loading Information Decals, Additional Acoustic Insulation

It was nearly 30C here yesterday, and with the sun out and the carpets sitting upside down on the hot driveway, it didn't take long. They were not really that wet to begin with. I did not see any adhesive residue. GM must have used disappearing glue. LOL!

I'd wager it's a little more than a penny. I would say about $0.25/vehicle for a clamp, vs. probably a $.01 for the adhesive way

You have 4 ports off the sunroof frame assembly.
You have 4 lower drain extensions where it is/could be adhesively connected.

So just for illustration purposes...

Remember, GM doesn't just makes Bonnevilles. They make many cars (and trucks/SUV's), that all are of the general same design sunroof and probably one or two suppliers to supply those sunroofs. Let's just say 500,000 vehicles a year with sunroofs.

500,000 vehicles a year doing it the adhesive way x 4 ports x 4 lower extensions = $80,000 of expense.

500,000 vehicles a year needing a $.25/part x 4 ports x 4 lower extensions = $2,000,000 of expense. That's an additional $1.9M of expense GM is incurring.


Then factor that all those vehicles have multiple year production runs. I'm not factoring that in as it would be hard to tabulate without going through every vehicle with an average life span of 5 years. AND you also have to factor in the calculated risk GM's bean counters took to assess the number of vehicles with sunroofs that would come back and make a warranty claim for these types of issues.

Now this isn't a big amount in and of itself (we smurf up in bigger amounts here where I work), and much of this can be amortized over the life of the production of said vehicle and/or expected sales of said vehicle, per GAAP standards, which wouldn't make it a big impact per vehicle. But with everything else we complain about on these cars and say... "If they'd just spend the extra $0.25 here, and the extra $0.25 there...".

This sh*t adds up. We're all gearheads and we look at it from a different perspective than a large corporation trying to build a widget for the cheapest price possible and then try to make as much margin on it from sales as possible in order to reinvest.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

I get it, I was being sarcastic. As a consumer, I'm tired of ongoing problems because GM was being cheap. Same reason GM won't manufacture a decent hose. Given how many of mine they replaced for free under warranty, I can't believe for a second they could not have spent a little more money and saved a lot down the road. It's these exact types of problems that make me want to look somewhere other than GM.

_________________


Bose Luxury Sound System w/Touch Screen Navigation, Addition of Factory XM, 2005 MY Antenna, OnStar Upgrade (3G),
RainSense Wipers, Backup Camera, '00 Style Door Panel Courtesy Lights, Heated Washer Solvent, 2X Remote Trunk Release,
Turn Signal Mirrors, Center Console Courtesy Lamp, Rear Outboard Heated Seats, PVD Chrome 18" Factory Rims, Upgraded
Carbon Fibre Appearance Interior Trim, Highly Modified Main Body Harness, Instrument Panel, Door, Door Panel & Headliner
Wiring Harnesses, Custom Fuse Box & Tire and Loading Information Decals, Additional Acoustic Insulation

I hear ya... For the sake of a few pennies per vehicle, they could ensure that each vehicle with factory sunroof, does not begin to rot out the floor after just a few years. I wonder how many hoses came apart well before the warranty ran out, only the owner would never know... Until it rusted through after the warranty expired.

Well, build your own cars then. Because ALL manufacturer's compromise on the side of cost.

_________________


Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
2004 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: Black/Ebony *SOLD*

Summer Toys: Combined 827 RWHP / 877lb/ft RWTQ
2004 Pontiac GTO: Impulse Blue Metallic/Black/M6: lots 'o mods, 415 RWHP / 405lb/ft RWTQ!
2006 Cadillac STS-V: Light Platinum Metallic/Light Gray/A6 - Spectre CAI, Magnaflow exhaust, Speed Inc. tune, 412 RWHP / 472lb/ft RWTQ

Daily Drivers:
2019 Chrysler Pacifica Limited: Mommy's new RGC
2015 Chrysler Town & Country Limited Platinum: Kids new RGC
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited: Sold to neighbor
2009 Pontiac G8 GT: L76, Sport Red Metallic
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500: Doeskin Tan - 8.1L Big Block... new plow truck
1999 Chevrolet Suburban: Sunset Gold Metallic - Daddy's winter beater and plow truck

Not saying they don't... I just don't happen to agree that it makes good business sense to do so. Keeping customers loyal, by providing a quality product, should be their priority. The bottom line would then take care of itself.