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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:10 pm 
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On my 2000 SSEi, I have been struggling with a startup issue for a while. Since I don't have any projects, I can finally take a look at it.

On the first start of the day, my car will start up, idle like crap for 1-2 seconds in a really low RPM range (400-500), and then stall out. When I crank it the 2nd time, everything is perfect. Then for the rest of the day, it will start normally anywhere I go. When I let it sit overnight, the same thing happens when its been sitting for a while.

I have gotten a few codes over the last couple weeks, but I don't know if they could be linked to this or not.

P0135 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Sensor 1) - happened last week, but after I cleared it, it hasn't came back.

P0440 Evaporative Emission Control System Malfunction - happened several weeks ago, and I had the "CHECK GAS CAP" on the DIC, but it seemed to go away by itself also. I haven't seen it since.

When it first started happening, I thought it might by the EGR, so I put another one on, and even tested with the Tech2. It appeared to be working.

Any ideas?

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Last edited by harofreak00 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:30 pm 
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How long does the PCM take before it hits closed loop and reads the O2 sensors? If it's more than the 1-2 seconds I would think you could rule that code out as a startup issue.

Is starting any easier if you let the car sit for a few extra seconds with the key ON before cranking?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:18 pm 
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I don't believe that either of those codes are causing your problem. I'd check the TPS, FPR, and IAC.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:21 pm 
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I swapped the MAF, TPS, and IAC from Shannons car this afternoon. I'll see how hers and my car start in the morning.

I think Jerry might be on to something with the fuel pump priming. I noticed that the pressure was sitting at 0 when I was working on it. (I have a gauge mounted on the rail). However it did prime right up to 50psi when I turned the key, no lag there. I'll have to wait and see what happens in the morning.

If it does it again tomorrow, I'll swap FPR's.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:21 pm 
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I'd say FPR. Have you replaced the fuel pump? Could be getting weak? I know on our 2k 1500 truck, you have to turn the key on and off a couple times to prime the system before it will start.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:25 pm 
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Pump is original, just has a new sender. I don't think its getting weak, as it performs great at WOT.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:27 pm 
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That's the thing, our truck does too, just when you first start it up it's goofy.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:46 pm 
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If the FPR regulator is OK, check how long it takes the fuel pressure to bleed down after the key is off. If it drops more than 5 psi in 10 minutes, the check valve in the fuel pump could be bad. A leaky FPR will cause similar drops in pressure.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Sounds like she's running like a carb'd 350 in the winter... :laughing3:

But, i am suprised it's not from a MAF sensor. sister's blazer does the SAME exact thing as your explaining, but she has a code throwing for it. so, i know it's bad.

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Last edited by 99bonnieSE on Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:58 am 
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Well the start this morning went the same as before. Shannon's car started fine, and mine stumbled on startup, but didn't die.

Here is a video. You can see the fuel pressure gauge on the rail, the pressure looks fine to me.

Image

I'm watching the fuel pressure to see if it holds now.

I'll replace the FPR today, and also give it new plugs and wires (found some rust on 2 coils connections) and see what happens.

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2004 Bonneville GXP | 60k | White Gold Tricoat | custom built supercharged 3800 hot rod | garage queen
1997 Corvette | 55k | Silver Metallic | Z06 wheels | Date-night Hauler/Parts runner
2014 Town & Country Limited | Cashmere Pearl | 95k | Family Hauler
2002 Ram 1500 Quad Cab Sport | Black| 260k | Official Bonneville Hauler


Last edited by harofreak00 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:03 am 
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Fuel pressure isn't likely unless you have full throttle starvation issues. EGR isn't active at idle other than a quick self-check after start.

I had exactly the same symptoms for 3 or 4 months, and just fixed it before WCBF. Mine was a bad o-ring on the IAC. A related cause for the same symptoms could be a throttle plate not fully closing, or sticking sometimes. While you're thinking about the problem, don't lose sight of the fact that metal parts expand and contract with heat and cold. That might be the key with symptoms like yours.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:24 am 
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EGR, Thats exactly when I AM having the problem though, directly after start. Could it be failing the self-check?

I just had the IAC off yesterday, o-ring was fine. Throttle plate isn't a problem either, its more of an electrical/fuel issue than mechanical issue.

Here are the results from the leak-down test.

While idling:
Image

Immediately after shut off:
Image

20 minutes after shut off:
Image

Kinda weird that the pressure would rise isn't it?

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1997 Corvette | 55k | Silver Metallic | Z06 wheels | Date-night Hauler/Parts runner
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2002 Ram 1500 Quad Cab Sport | Black| 260k | Official Bonneville Hauler


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:24 am 
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FPR is fine based on your test. Keep in mind the EGR self-test after start only takes a couple seconds, then it goes inactive until you start driving, so no, I don't think the EGR is your problem in THAT sense. A leak there, maybe. And as things warm up, metal expands and seals the leak? This could be anywhere between the valve and the stovepipe. Even the SC gasket is a possibility in this case.

All the EGR self-test does is crack the valve open a little and watches the RPM's for a slight change at that moment. If the RPM's change by a predictable value, the test is good, no code is registered, and the valve goes inactive until the next drive cycle.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:59 am 
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That is strange that the pressure would build 10 psi after it was shut off. What do your IAT and ECT temps show when cold?

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Last edited by Archon on Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:33 pm 
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willwren wrote:
FPR is fine based on your test. Keep in mind the EGR self-test after start only takes a couple seconds, then it goes inactive until you start driving, so no, I don't think the EGR is your problem in THAT sense. A leak there, maybe. And as things warm up, metal expands and seals the leak? This could be anywhere between the valve and the stovepipe. Even the SC gasket is a possibility in this case.

All the EGR self-test does is crack the valve open a little and watches the RPM's for a slight change at that moment. If the RPM's change by a predictable value, the test is good, no code is registered, and the valve goes inactive until the next drive cycle.


Did you watch the video? Do you understand that the stumble is only for 1-2 seconds on a cold start? There isn't a drop of heat in the engine at that point. You could still put your hand on the exhaust manifold. It always starts PERFECT on the 2nd try, if it does stall out.

If I give it throttle, and keep it from dying, it will run normal after the few seconds.

Archon wrote:
That is strange that the pressure would build 10 psi after it was shut off. What do your IAT and ECT temps show when cold?


Ambient temp.

I just got done doing some more swapping of parts. It got brand new Autolite 104's, Belden wires, different EGR, different FPR. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see how it runs.

Here are the old plugs. Doesn't it seem weird that the rear plugs have soot on them where the boot ends? Does that mean a leak on the rear header? Its the equal amount of soot on all plugs.

Image
Image

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2004 Bonneville GXP | 60k | White Gold Tricoat | custom built supercharged 3800 hot rod | garage queen
1997 Corvette | 55k | Silver Metallic | Z06 wheels | Date-night Hauler/Parts runner
2014 Town & Country Limited | Cashmere Pearl | 95k | Family Hauler
2002 Ram 1500 Quad Cab Sport | Black| 260k | Official Bonneville Hauler


Last edited by harofreak00 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:25 pm 
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my 2000 had the same issue. it would throw an o2 sensor code every once and a while. replaced the o2 and problem fixed.

just my 2 cents

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Last edited by bonneville dan-o on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:36 pm 
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o2 is a 3yr old Denso that otherwise appears to be performing perfect. Hmmm

How often is "every once is a while"? Mine has only happened once.

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2004 Bonneville GXP | 60k | White Gold Tricoat | custom built supercharged 3800 hot rod | garage queen
1997 Corvette | 55k | Silver Metallic | Z06 wheels | Date-night Hauler/Parts runner
2014 Town & Country Limited | Cashmere Pearl | 95k | Family Hauler
2002 Ram 1500 Quad Cab Sport | Black| 260k | Official Bonneville Hauler


Last edited by harofreak00 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:14 pm 
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i would say about once a month. i didnt fix it for a few months.

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2006 Crown Vic, white P71 interceptor. Push bar, 35% tint.

TRADED IN! 2008 G8 Ignition Orange Metallic LY7, 47k miles, Flowmasters, all options but sunroof.

SOLD! 2000 SSEI Black, 180 t-stat, autolite 104's, 3.4" MPS, custom M&D CAI, 1/8" phenolic S/C spacer, throttle body heat sheild, solid front mount, MSD wires, shift kit, 3rd brake light overlay, cleared headlights, tinted and cleared tails, 20% tint, Syntec, ARP license plate bolts Goodyear Eagle GT's,disabled DRL's, 8000k H.I.D's, pilot angel eye fogs

TRADED IN2004 GXP Black. 53,000mi.... drop in K&N filter, 5000k H.I.D. lows, 8000k H.I.D fogs, switchback 5000K turn signals. cleared headlights. 20% Tint.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:54 pm 
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So when you say it had the same issue, you mean that it stalled out everytime you started it in the morning, and then was fine on the 2nd start?

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2004 Bonneville GXP | 60k | White Gold Tricoat | custom built supercharged 3800 hot rod | garage queen
1997 Corvette | 55k | Silver Metallic | Z06 wheels | Date-night Hauler/Parts runner
2014 Town & Country Limited | Cashmere Pearl | 95k | Family Hauler
2002 Ram 1500 Quad Cab Sport | Black| 260k | Official Bonneville Hauler


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:25 pm 
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not every time i started it but i would happen 5-6 times a week. it would start, studder, die. the i would restart it and it would be fine.

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2006 Crown Vic, white P71 interceptor. Push bar, 35% tint.

TRADED IN! 2008 G8 Ignition Orange Metallic LY7, 47k miles, Flowmasters, all options but sunroof.

SOLD! 2000 SSEI Black, 180 t-stat, autolite 104's, 3.4" MPS, custom M&D CAI, 1/8" phenolic S/C spacer, throttle body heat sheild, solid front mount, MSD wires, shift kit, 3rd brake light overlay, cleared headlights, tinted and cleared tails, 20% tint, Syntec, ARP license plate bolts Goodyear Eagle GT's,disabled DRL's, 8000k H.I.D's, pilot angel eye fogs

TRADED IN2004 GXP Black. 53,000mi.... drop in K&N filter, 5000k H.I.D. lows, 8000k H.I.D fogs, switchback 5000K turn signals. cleared headlights. 20% Tint.


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