Help with codes : 1992-1999

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JMH1950

Post subject: Help with codes

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:09 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

After another reminder by my dear wife that the car was "acting funny" by randomly "beeping 3 times with a sudden loss of power", I hooked up the scanner and pulled 2 history codes.

112 - Manifold Air Temp senor signal low.

361 - Ignition System Problem. Electric spark timing (EST) not toggling.

Any ideas on what would cause these?

Could the 112 code be because I forgot to hook up the IAS after putting the air box back in?

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

Last edited by JMH1950 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:47 am

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

Nothing??

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wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

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myfirstbonnie

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:28 am

Resident Gearhead

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 10:19 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Year and Trim: .
2015 Buick Enclave
2013 Buick Regal GS

You are probably right on the 112, but the otherone I am not sure about. I am at work right now, but I can look it up later when I get home.

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:31 am

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

myfirstbonnie wrote:

You are probably right on the 112, but the otherone I am not sure about. I am at work right now, but I can look it up later when I get home.

Thanks Matt. I've been looking through the FSM and searching the net but can't find anything specific.

Also the Actron scanner won't clear the code. Will disconnecting the battery clear it?

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

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myfirstbonnie

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:16 pm

Resident Gearhead

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 10:19 pm
Posts: 5530
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Year and Trim: .
2015 Buick Enclave
2013 Buick Regal GS

I am assuming that you do not have the SES light illuminated right now. The first thing I would check is the connector to the ICM and the harness to it. Take a look and make sure there are no wires rubbing on anything and the connector is clean and tight, but not overtight. According to the FSM if it is a continuous code the SES light will be on. An intermittent problem they are pointing to a poor connection. On the ICM it is the circuit to pin a on the connector that is monitored (white wire).

Last edited by myfirstbonnie on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:39 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

Thanks Matt. You are correct, no SES light on right now. It's only done it to me once but Margaret seems to get it every day for some reason.

I'll check that connection and see what I can come up with.

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:42 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

All the connections look clean and are tight, I removed them and sprayed with contact cleaner anyway and put them back together.

Seems that I'm also getting random missfires on # 1, 3, 4

Took out a couple of plugs and they look fine but they are over a year old so I'll get some new ones and put them in anyway.

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

Top

willwren

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:37 pm

Retired Admin

Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Posts: 65489
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre

Your 112 is very likely a disconnected or failed IAT (or a bad wire).

The 361 code I assume is actually a 1361? (See techinfo for more info).

Unfortunately for you (I have my FSM opened for the 95 L67 which is identical in circuit to your 94 L27), it's one of those codes that says "There's something wrong in this big circuit".

Plugs are rarely the cause of random misfires. Wires are more likely, or if there was a common coil issue. In your case, it could be a bad or bad connection coil 1/3 and a wire on #4 touching something metal and shorting. This is a very likely scenario based on your symptoms and logic based on past experience.

My recipe:
On a dark night with the underhood light OFF, spray water over a running engine with a windex bottle. Look for arcs and sparks from shorted wires.

Disconnect the ICM and disassemble the coils from it. Clean all connections, and check grounds. The ICM harness grounds underneath the ICM bracket at the end of the front cylinder head. It also grounds through it's base and the bracket.

Check for good grounds at pin K ( black/white) on the harness. Check the 3 grounds that come out of the harness to the ICM bracket/head. Remove the nut and clean those.

Possible suspects in this CODE (misfire symptoms aside) are the ICM, PCM, Cam sensor, Crank sensor, and all wires in between.

My odds on your code in order from most likely to least likely:

1. Grounding issue or bad connection on a component.
2. ICM
3. Crank Sensor
4. PCM
5. Cam sensor
6. Strained/damaged wire.

My odds on your random misfire are as stated above:
1. Weak 1/3 coil or bad connection to the ICM from it.
2. Intermittent arc through the insulation on the #4 wire where it comes close to a ground (engine).

Just my 2 cents.......based on odds and experience.

_________________

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Last edited by willwren on Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jrs3800

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:41 pm

Retired Admin/Techinfo Admin

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 2:08 pm
Posts: 26009
Location: Space Coast, or at least it used to be
Year and Trim: 03 SLE, 95 SE, 95 TS SE

When you have a Code 1361 For which ever reason the PCM had not taken over the timing... So in this case the car will run in Module Mode Timing( I think its 10* )

I'd say with this code you either have an ICM issue or a PCM issue... But make sure you check everything...

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Ragsdale

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:38 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 5:01 pm
Posts: 927
Year and Trim: 06

Here's what alldata had to say:
(I also pm'd you a link for more detailed by alldata)

AllData DIY wrote:

DTC P1361 WILL SET WHEN:

* Open CKT 423 at the time of engine start-up or grounded CKT 423 while engine is running.

OR

* PCM not commanding IC mode (open or grounded CKT 424) when the engine is started.

ACTION TAKEN (PCM will default to):
When DTC(s) P1350/P1361 are set, the PCM will illuminate the MIL (Service Engine Soon) and remove the 5 volt bypass signal, causing the engine to run on module mode timing.

TEST DESCRIPTION
Number(s) below refer to circled number(s) on the diagnostic chart.

1. Checks to see if PCM recognizes a problem. If it does not set DTC P1350/P1361, it is an intermittent problem which could be due to a loose connection.
2. With the PCM disconnected, the ohmmeter should be reading less than 300 ohms, which is the normal resistance of the IC circuit through the ignition control module. A higher resistance would indicate a fault in CKT 423, a poor ignition module connection, or a faulty ignition control module.
3. If test light was "ON" when connected from 12 volts to PCM harness terminal "RB15", either CKT 424 is shorted to ground or the ignition control module is faulty.
4. Checks to see if ignition control module switches when the bypass circuit is energized by 12 volts through the test light. If the ignition control module switches, the ohmmeter reading should shift to over 6,000 ohms.
5. Disconnecting the ignition control module should make the ohmmeter read as if it were monitoring an open circuit (infinite reading). Otherwise, CKT 423 is shorted to ground.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS
An intermittent may be caused by a poor connection, rubbed through wire insulation, or a wire broken inside the insulation.

Check for:

* Poor connection or damaged harness - Inspect PCM harness connectors for backed out terminals "RB15" or "RB16", improper mating, broken locks, improperly formed or damaged terminals, poor terminal to wire connection. and damaged harness.
* Intermittent test - Monitor a digital voltmeter connected from affected terminal to ground while moving related connectors and wiring harness. If the failure is induced, the voltage reading will change.
* Refer to DIAGNOSIS BY SYMPTOM/"DETONATION, SPARK KNOCK" See: Symptom Related Diagnostic Procedures\Detonation/ Spark Knock

_________________

Last edited by Ragsdale on Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:57 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

Quote:

Plugs are rarely the cause of random misfires. Wires are more likely, or if there was a common coil issue. In your case, it could be a bad or bad connection coil 1/3 and a wire on #4 touching something metal and shorting. This is a very likely scenario based on your symptoms and logic based on past experience.

Seems like the random missfire is only on start up. When driving along there are no missfires being detected.

Quote:

The 361 code I assume is actually a 1361? (See techinfo for more info).

Right, but my Actron scanner displays it as 361 for some reason.

What has me completely confused is that it only happened to me once, but Margaret says that it acts up on her every time she drives it.

I guess tomorrow I'll remove the coils and ECM and make sure all the grounds are clean and tight. These intermitent problems are a real PITA.

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

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Ragsdale

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:16 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 5:01 pm
Posts: 927
Year and Trim: 06

JMH1950 wrote:

Quote:

The 361 code I assume is actually a 1361? (See techinfo for more info).

Right, but my Actron scanner displays it as 361 for some reason.

There are some after market Scantools that still haven't been updated and generate these and other Invalid DTC codes.

When you drove it and it didn't act up is it after she drove it?

_________________

Last edited by Ragsdale on Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:45 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

Quote:

When you drove it and it didn't act up is it after she drove it?

Usually the next day.

The most common time for it to act up on her is first thing in the morning. Lately she says it happens just about any time.

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

Top

Jrs3800

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:08 pm

Retired Admin/Techinfo Admin

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 2:08 pm
Posts: 26009
Location: Space Coast, or at least it used to be
Year and Trim: 03 SLE, 95 SE, 95 TS SE

When it acts up, does it stumble, skip, backfire or have the SES Light come on?

Usually in these cases the PCM ends up having an issue... If you were close we'd swap one of mine in..( Yes I have more than 1 in the Spare Parts Box )...LMAO

If you get everything checked and you find the world is ok, then you may want to try the New PCM... Unless you can wiggle one From Wrens 95 for a minute for a quickie test

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Mechanical Mike

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:31 pm

Retired Gearhead

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Posts: 3606
Location: Buffalo New York
Year and Trim: 99 SSEi

Try checking the coil resistance. http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1683

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2006 Chevy Monte Carlo SS

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:59 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

Jr's3800 wrote:

When it acts up, does it stumble, skip, backfire or have the SES Light come on?

Usually in these cases the PCM ends up having an issue... If you were close we'd swap one of mine in..( Yes I have more than 1 in the Spare Parts Box )...LMAO

If you get everything checked and you find the world is ok, then you may want to try the New PCM... Unless you can wiggle one From Wrens 95 for a minute for a quickie test

I have a spare PCM but no prom for it.

Wife just called the car quit completely while driving down the road. After sitting for a few minutes it started up again and she is on the way home.

Whatever the problem is, it's getting worse.

When I was having trans problems one of the shops put their Tech 2 scanner on it and said that it was showing a cam sensor error. Wondering if this error has grown to be the problem and how hard is it to change the cam sensor?

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

Last edited by JMH1950 on Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jrs3800

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:07 pm

Retired Admin/Techinfo Admin

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 2:08 pm
Posts: 26009
Location: Space Coast, or at least it used to be
Year and Trim: 03 SLE, 95 SE, 95 TS SE

Hmmm... Could be more along the lines of a possible Crank sensor.. The Engine will run without the Cam sensor..

Ask the Wife if the Speedo was still working when the car died of if it dropped dead too...

What exactly does the car do in the morning?

Also being that you have a Spare PCM go ahead and swap it out and install your EPROM from The original into the Back Up PCM..

Last edited by Jrs3800 on Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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willwren

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:30 pm

Retired Admin

Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 11:07 pm
Posts: 65489
Location: Oregon WCBF'04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11 Survivor
Year and Trim: .
93 SSEi
95 SLE (SC)
97 Buick LeSabre

Looks like a heat-related issue to me. I think we're narrowing it down to the point we can start looking at electronics. The ICM, PCM, and Crank Sensor can all be affected by heat in certain failure modes as things expand and contract around bad connections or cracks on circuit boards.

I agree with ruling out the PCM now while you can, and swap your eprom to it. The eprom won't be the problem, the PCM can be. Hope your 94 is mounted like my 95, and not like my 93! :bluetwitch:

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JMH1950

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:45 pm

Posts like an L36

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ladysmith B.C. WCBF '08, '09 survivor
Year and Trim: no longer a Bonneville owner

Jr's3800 wrote:

Wife says speedo worked until the car came to a complete stop. Engine dead, speedo still working.

Until this morning it usually started acting up within 200 yards of home. It would lose power and the warning chime would "beep" until it started running right again. The same beep as if she forgot to release the parking brake. Usually no SES light. At other times it would start acting up on the highway when she pulled out to pass someone. Power loss and "beeping".

Today it got about half a mile and engine quit altogether. When she first tried to restart, it would run like "absolute crap" like on 3 or 4 cyls. After sitting off for 5 minutes it started up and has been running fine. I just took it to town and back (about 50 km) and it ran perfectly.

I guess I'll start with the simpler things tomorrow. Swap in the spare PCM, remove, test, and clean the coils, check the ECM grounds.

_________________

wjcollier07 wrote:

Darn it John...now you got me thinking mine's not big enough.

2001 F150 a basic six cyl with 5 speed manual trans.
'66 Piper Cherokee 360 CID , 180 hp, 155 mph @ 2500 rpm, drop in K&N filter.

Top

Jrs3800

Post subject: Re: Help with codes

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:17 pm

Retired Admin/Techinfo Admin

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 2:08 pm
Posts: 26009
Location: Space Coast, or at least it used to be
Year and Trim: 03 SLE, 95 SE, 95 TS SE

Thats exactly where I would start... Let us know what you find

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