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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Location: Sarnia Ontario
Year and Trim: 1994 Pontiac SSEi Stock Daily Runner!
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I think this one has likely been answered but want to confirm
When the car shifts fully in to lockup I get a miss like vibration in the car. I have new wires from last summer and it had platinum plugs until two weeks ago. It has standard ac delco plugs 601's i believe now I have now swapped out the ignition coils tonight and the mis like vibration is still there
Car has 176k Kms
Help!!!!
Still ignition issue or do I have something else going on?
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:08 am 
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It almost sounds like the torque converter itself is bad.

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:06 am 
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You really need to make absolutely sure that the plugs, wires and coils are not the cause of the problem. Most of the misses felt in lockup are ignition related. Double check the wire routing. Make sure the #6 wire is not touching the o2 sensor wiring. Are you sure a plug was not broken during installation or that a wire was not damaged when the plugs were changed?

It is possible to have a trans problem cause shudder symptoms, but it is worth your efforts to double check to make sure the ignition is OK first.

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:03 pm 
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Location: Sarnia Ontario
Year and Trim: 1994 Pontiac SSEi Stock Daily Runner!
The better halfs ride
2004 Ford Ranger XLT FX4 extended cab 4x4 Stock with All the toys
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Thanks for reply
I changed the plugs from Platinums to try and resolve the problem first
Then I changed the Ignition coil assembly. bout the only think left is the wires I have them covered with the plastic armor. They are good quality wireset that was new last summer! I will meter each out next see if one went bad but I don't feel a miss when it is idling only when it is is in TCC lockup does it show up pronounced
I am not kicking any codes and my acton scanner is not showing any cylinder misfires when going down the road I did notice the O2 sensor is really cycling lean rich lean rich and the EGR is cycling alot when going down the road I am assuming this is normal operation

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:24 pm 
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Rule of thumb on that shudder:
    1. If it shudders AFTER lockup, it is likely engine related, and then, usually ignition.
    2. If it only shudders DURING lockup it points more towards the TCC
:)NAPA sells some good Belden plug wires.

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 5:47 pm 
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Location: Sarnia Ontario
Year and Trim: 1994 Pontiac SSEi Stock Daily Runner!
The better halfs ride
2004 Ford Ranger XLT FX4 extended cab 4x4 Stock with All the toys
The Winter Toy
2000 Ski Doo Touring
The vibration I am feeling is when it is locked up and holding just over 1500 rpm something like 50-55 MPH
No shudder on the actual lockup just a miss like feel to the car Like 1 cylinder is not firing. Funny part is if I shift in straight drive rather than o/d and hold same speed rev's go up and don't feel it.

So I did the resistance test on the wires and I have done a search again looking for the spec's on the wires and can't find the post on it. Must be the day I am having can't find anything easily!
Here is the resistance by plug #
1-----3.9k 2-----10.3k
3-----6.9k 4-----15.2k
5-----7.2k 6-----10.8k

Do these seem in the range or can anyone else find that post for the plug wire resistance reading?
Thanks
:dontknow:
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:59 pm 
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Since the wires are likely carbon, the resistance should go up according to length. I have sort of lost faith in static resistance sort of tests, though, unless you SEE a problem.
Does it idle nice and smooth? No vibration or buzz?
Any, what I call, "crappy spot" w/quick acceleration in Park?
Were the coils new?

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:35 pm 
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Location: Sarnia Ontario
Year and Trim: 1994 Pontiac SSEi Stock Daily Runner!
The better halfs ride
2004 Ford Ranger XLT FX4 extended cab 4x4 Stock with All the toys
The Winter Toy
2000 Ski Doo Touring
The coils where used from a local jy
I don't have a crappy spot on the Park and give it a shot to the gas kind of thing
If I hold the rev's it sound fine to my old ears

The only wire that seems a bit off was the #4 to me as it was 5k higher and IIRC is not as long as the #6 wire. Going to take a boo around and see if I have another old one that is in good enough shape to sub in for the #4

I went thru the meter test that Wilwren posted in the techinfo on the original set and they measure out with no opens or shorts and right within spec's
So not the coils
It does seem worse after I have drove the car to work and then on the trip home it does it a bit more
My drive is about 40minutes each way so the car is well warmed up Mostly highway at 90 kph (55mph) so right in the sweet spot to feel the problem
I have put two engines in this thing since last spring so I don't really want another issue
First was bad when I got it Hole in #4 piston Second spun a main bearing in 4 weeks
This last engine has been fine No oil burning and has been running fine. I only run 91 octane in it and have the semisynthetic motor old in it.
Just took it out again and it seems that it starts the chugging right after it shifts into lockup It shifts and then I get the almost steady chugging. If I step on it a bit it shifts out of lockup and you don't feel the chugging
RR1
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:31 pm 
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Location: Memphis, TN
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Yes, go for that #4.

If that does NOT do it here is a test of the coils I stumbled across.
This is a "live" test, rather than just the resistance check.[list]1. Start motor and let it calm down a little (should only take a few seconds to a min. or so)
2. Unplug the IAC valve (near the TPS on the throttle body and is a black cylinder shaped item)... not to exceed 2 min. at a time.
3. Pull the plug wires off at the coils one at a time. I like to use rubber handled pliers and rubber gloves. It will still give you a little tickle when the wire is put back on.
OR, an option would be to shut it off in between, put the wire back on and then restart to check the next one and so on. It needs to be running when you pull one though. Plus the "tickle" doesn't come when you remove the wire, it's when you put it back on.
4. When you pull a wire off a GOOD coil output, it is normal for arcing back to the coil body. So, if it does NOT arc, suspect an issue with that coil output. It can be bad on one output of the two and the other to work okay.[list] I have seen this work twice now, so who know..

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Location: Sarnia Ontario
Year and Trim: 1994 Pontiac SSEi Stock Daily Runner!
The better halfs ride
2004 Ford Ranger XLT FX4 extended cab 4x4 Stock with All the toys
The Winter Toy
2000 Ski Doo Touring
No lights out in the shed where the spare plug wire is so I will have a boo in the morning
I will give it a meter as well so I know what I have before I add something into the mix that is unknown

L8tr
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:48 am 
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Year and Trim: 1992 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi - L67 Series 1 - 131,000 Miles.
Redsled, what does that live test mean by "arcing back"?

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:43 am 
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There will be a sizable arc from the exposed tip of the coil (where the wire was pulled) back towards the body of the coil body, where the windings are.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Location: Sarnia Ontario
Year and Trim: 1994 Pontiac SSEi Stock Daily Runner!
The better halfs ride
2004 Ford Ranger XLT FX4 extended cab 4x4 Stock with All the toys
The Winter Toy
2000 Ski Doo Touring
Well just got the new wires installed. Just for fun I metered them out
All where 1.6K ohms or less
Given how high the old ones where yep made a difference
Idles really smooth now and no more chugging
So I would suggest the wires should ohn out something less than 3K to be good

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:33 pm 
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Year and Trim: 1992 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi - L67 Series 1 - 131,000 Miles.
Roadrunner I have tried everything to rid myself of the chugging with TCC. How did you measure the wires? Pull them and just stick a volt meter on both ends? I have new autolite professional wires.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:43 pm 
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Measure the resistance in ohms, not in volts.

One probe in each end. Wiggle around too (the wire, not you) to make sure there isn't an intermittent break.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:16 pm 
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Location: Sarnia Ontario
Year and Trim: 1994 Pontiac SSEi Stock Daily Runner!
The better halfs ride
2004 Ford Ranger XLT FX4 extended cab 4x4 Stock with All the toys
The Winter Toy
2000 Ski Doo Touring
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I have a cheap $20.00 digital multimeter I picked up a year ago. It is just handy for checking out wires and battery voltages.

The connections inside the boots are down a bit so depends how long the metal probe ends are on the meter leads. You may need to poke around a bit to ensure you get a connection. You should hear the metal on metal click when you touch.
Pick the 20k ohm scale on your meter Anything lower will likely not read correctly
I was pretty surprised to see the difference between the Einhof wires I put on May 16,2007 and the new ones today
Just can't seem to get good stuff anymore. The Einhof wires had a 5 year warranty so they where not cheap to begin with
If you not aware Ohms is measuring basically the resistance in the wire from one end to the other. These are carbon based wires so the resistance is not like a copper wire which would show very close to 0 ohms. To my way of thinking a 1.6k ohm for carbon should be the normal on new wires. If you are reading like I was on the longer lengths of 10K or more that just can't be good! It is going to drop off the amount of energy that gets to the actual gap on the spark plug.

I also put the plastic wire armor on the wires end to end to try and protect them from heat and rubbing when going down the road
It's like 6-7.00 for 10 feet of it You will have to split it a couple of times to put the wires back in the wire carriers on the front and back Valve covers
I listed the original resistances versus the brand new for reference for anyone wondering if their wires are soso or bad
It is not a perfect test but if the wire has a break in it you can tell usually with a little wiggling. Your resistance will jump significantly or go to infinite if you have a full open wire. Hope this helps you out.
I have also run the coil tests that Wilwren documented in the Techinfo previously which makes perfect sense to me when testing coil windings. Wilwren did a great job of documenting the test so I would like to say a thankyou to him for his presentation on it as well
The test 93Redsled refers too is not for the faint of heart! You can get a pretty good zap off the ignition coils if you don't have good insulated gloves and pliers. It is a good test no doubt to ensure the coils are each kicking on each plug wire! Been there done that and did not like the charge going up my arm!

:beerchug:
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Year and Trim: 1992 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi - L67 Series 1 - 131,000 Miles.
Thank you greatly for your detailed explanation. I appreciate it and will be doing the tests tomorrow or tuesday.

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