Hello, I need market information. Specifically, the number of EXISTING GM Cars that have Rotted Subframe Bushing Holes, and whose owners would like a Low-Cost Solution.

Background:

I replaced my 97 Pontiac Bonneville SLE's subframe that had rotted #2 and #3 subframe bushings and subframe holes. I went through the pain of doing this in order to pass all necessary safety inspections in my state,

I'd like to determine whether it would make sense for me to develop a solution to help the typical DIY mechanic (like myself), who has the same problem but wants a solution but doesn't want to replace their subframe.

It seems that it would cost a typical non-DIY owner about $1000 to replace a rotted subframe and 4 bushings (#2 & #3) because the cost of a good used subframe is $300, 4 bushing kits is $200, and professional labor is about $500). Also, rotted subframes & bushings are a safety problem caused by faulty GM designs, and therefore replacement should be performed at no cost by having GM RECALL all cars having this problem. However, this is not the case, so it's now up to typical owners to pay the full cost of repair, or DIY mechanics to find a low-cost solution to their problem.

I have an idea for such a solution that I may be willing to develop, depending on its demand, which could cost a DIY mechanic only about $500 to only replace 4 bushings (#2 & #3), add a few more parts easily, and NOT NEED TO REPLACE OR EVEN REMOVE THE ENTIRE ROTTED SUBFRAME! My solution would fix this problem enough to pass a state safety inspection.

MY QUESTION IS:

1) How many GM cars exist in the USA, over all years and all makes and models, have a rotting subframe/bushing problem, (i.e. just enough subframe/bushing rot for one, some or all of the #2 and #3 bushings to pop though their subframe)? These cars should be well enough to last for a few more years, at least, if their subframe problem is repaired. Note that there should be no body rust/rot problems above the subframe bushings.

Thank you in advance for your answers. Please remember that I'm looking for market research information, on numbers of vehicles with this problem, and not an alternate solution or your experience with this issue. Just numbers please!

I'll be checking this forum, from time-to-time, while I start by taking some subframe measurements and spend an hour or two to make preliminary drawings of my design idea.

Thanks again!

sorry, dont have info you need but, keep in mind that the cars that do rot are reliable enough to approach, if not exceed,20 years of use and abuse

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2000 SSEi
past rides:
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1992 GTP
1987 Grand Am

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Retired Bonneville Owner and former GM Tech:
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RIP:
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I have personally seen my fair share of C and H bodies over the years I have been checking them out, and I can honestly say I haven't personally seen a single case of subframe failure as a result of corrosion, or anything even remotely close to it.

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~Randall~


1993 Buick Park Avenue - 197k - Some odds and ends done - Simply won't die
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1990 Oldsmobile 88 - Gone to a better place

Subframes can be had for $40-75 all day long in my area, and chances are that comes with the bushings. Check www.car-part.com

$500 labor? are you taking it to the dealer? I could would a subframe swap in a couple hours @ $60/hr. No way should this take 8 hours by a professional.

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Andrew - owner/operator of Bonnevilles Unlimited

2004 Bonneville GXP | 60k | White Gold Tricoat | custom built supercharged 3800 hot rod | garage queen
1997 Corvette | 55k | Silver Metallic | Z06 wheels | Date-night Hauler/Parts runner
2014 Town & Country Limited | Cashmere Pearl | 95k | Family Hauler
2002 Ram 1500 Quad Cab Sport | Black| 260k | Official Bonneville Hauler

Well if I had to guess, counting every h body car (bonneville, lesabre, olds 88 and then the park ave, riviera, olds 98 which are similar cars), they must have been in the millions. So let's say 1 million total. About 30% of these cars would up in parts of the world where they aren't exposed to salt. That leaves roughly 700,000. I'd say at least half of them have been junked for any number of reasons including the subframe issue. So 350,000 of these cars have or will have this issue. In all honesty it's very difficult to know how many cars this has affected. And on top of this the newest possible h body was built 12 years ago. I don't see very many normal non diy people even keeping a car of that age that has suffered this failure, especially given that if it's gone that far the rest of the car is not doing very well.

As Andrew said, good subframes are cheap and not really that bad to replace, giving the market for this repair you are developing a very small audience.

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-Ryan
2004 GTO....LS1, LSA supercharged 525whp, 6MT
96 SSEi...September 2010 COTM........GONE
04 GTP comp G.... December 2015 COTM........GONE
2013 Audi Allroad Quattro

Getting a good one can be hard. I looked around my area pretty exhaustively, and no one even had one to offer. I ended up on eBay, getting one for $2xx shipped. It's in great shape so I felt the price was fair.

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To be blunt, the market for the 87 - 99 H / C bodies is basically dead except for maybe a dozen nut cases like us here that would actually spend money on one to keep it going. For the most part now they are $2,000 cars and if the subframe rots enough to drop down there is a 90% chance the rest of the car is rotted garbage as well and should be removed from road service for public safety. I admire your drive to find a cost effective solution, but reality is it is something you would never make a dime off of.

_________________
Ryan

2003 Bonneville SSEi - The Black Mirror SOLD!
2002 Bonneville SE - The Mutt Complete 2004 SLE interior, drivetrain, and body harness swap, ECC swap, HUD swap, black GXP wheels, GXP headlights and tinted tails - SOLD
2003 BMW 540i M Sport, 2001 BMW X5 4.4i, 2010 GMC Acadia, 2017 Grand Design Imagine 3150BH
1982 Cutlass Supreme - The fun one

No one on this forum is going to be able to give you a number that is even remotely close. Then there's the fact that you have to market the item and get your information out to those people, many of whom won't find you.

To address your point about GM recalling the item: Never in a million years is that going to happen. Lots of cars beyond the GM H-Body have this problem, and care and maintenance vary so vastly from owner to owner, you can't blame the manufacturer. My 2003 SSEi had a pristine subframe because the car came from being in Florida for the first 5 years of its life, and I took great care of it for the next 5 years. Can't say the same thing about a 2003 Bonneville owned by a middle-aged woman from MN who didn't give a *shoot*, and thought that getting her oil changed at Jiffy Lube was the greatest thing in the world. That car could be falling apart.

Could you make a low-cost, DIY solution? Maybe. But then people still have to fight rusty hardware and install it themselves, and the odds are that the people who have this problem aren't DIY'ers themselves. You'd be better off making a solution and trying to sell it to shops for them to use for cars that come in.

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Bye Bye:

RIP sandrock

Thanks for all your replies so far:

To harofreak00: After making many calls, I found that $275 is the typical price for a high-quality used subframe in New Hampshire & Maine. Closest is 100 mi. away and I'd have to put down 50% on a Credit Card. Maybe the price is lower if I paid cash when pay the other half during pickup. Some recycling yards here buy them in bulk from a low-humidity state, down south. I'm guessing you live in a low-humidity state with little rust on cars. Also, my guess at $500 for labor was too high, because I forgot to subtract the $250 charge for some brake lines that needed replacement. So, actually, labor here in Southern NH is around $250 ($90-$125 per hr.), for a rusted subframe & bolts.

To haro1225: So maybe there's a small DIY audience of the "350,000 of these cars have or will have this issue". Or maybe, since these cars are at least 12 years old, then maybe there's a large percentage of them being DIY mechanics, because I don't think it makes financial sense to maintain an old car unless the owner is a DIY mechanic, or there's one in their family. So, from the 350,000, I'd guess around 200,000 are maintained by a DIY mechanic.


To J Wikoff: Yup, I'm getting similar prices here in Southern NH for subframes in great shape.

To crash93ssei: I think there are more "nutcases" like us than you think, especially since the 3800 motor and transmission typically last 300K to 500K miles. So it makes good sense for DIY people like myself (I'm also a semi-retired Strategic Marketing Engineer with lots of spare time now) to maintain my car's body to match the longer life-span of its motor & tranny. Down south, car bodies last much longer, so it's not much of an issue down there I think.

To 00Beast: After I write up and pay for a provisional patent, I could sell direct online because I'm highly experienced at building and running an eCommerce Website for consumer products. Then, if it sells well, I'll simply license my patent, for 5% royalty, to some manufacturers who would do their own tactical marketing and sell direct to auto repair shops. That would be sweet. I wouldn't expect to earn a whole lot of money, but the experience would be nice.

Thanks again to all your replies. I'll keep you all informed about my progress, although "I have many irons in the fire" as they say.