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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:24 pm 
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Year and Trim: 1996 SE
Alright.. somebody smarter than me, please tell me what you think about this issue with my 96 Bonnie SE 3.8

The car was having trouble starting.. but only occasionally (1 of 15 times or so). Battery/alt check good, lead me to believe the starter was sticking. I replaced the starter. Thought it was fixed.. a week later, random no start. Turned out to be worn wires in the ignition, which were randomly losing contact and causing the car but unable to read the chip in the key = will not start. That's all good now, but background info for the new issue.

Since replacing the starter (and disconnecting the battery) the climate control system has a mind of it's own.

- 65% of the time (roughly) the heat works fine, as advertised. Blows plenty hot, leading me to believe heater core is fine, and the thermostat is only a year or so old, but I pulled it out and tested it just in case. All good.
- Other times it will blow cold. No issue with the fan or control unit functionality, just blows cold air. Occasionally running the temp down to 60 and back up to 90 has worked to cycle the hot air back on, but rarely. Once in a while it will blow hot for a short time, but then cycle itself back to cold.
- Regardless of what kind of air I get, the temp reading on the climate display flashes for a while when starting the car. I have heard this happens for 50 cycles or so after disconnecting the battery, or that it could mean there is a fault in the system. I would guess that I'm past the 50 start cycles already anyway.

- This is the confusing part: Almost every time (especially if the engine is good and hot), if I stop at a red light and simply put the beast in park, turn the key off and restart it -> Heat will work from that point forward

I have read all over the internet, and on these forums, about similar issues, but none seem to be exactly the same. Given the fact that there has never been any type of problem until the starter change/battery disconnect it seems like there is some electrical issue with the climate brain box. Seems less likely to be mechanical (failed actuator) since the quick restart usually works, and continues to work for the duration of that drive. I don't know, I could (most likely) be looking at it all wrong.

Any thoughts anybody? Thank you in advance for taking the time to read. Let me know if there is any other info I could give that would help. Thanks!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:22 pm 
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Take a second look at the actuator.
First thing I would check is the actuator door lever.
Pull the glove box cover off and cycle the climate control from hot to cold and
watch if the lever moves back and forth.
The Rod / Mechanism sometimes gets goofed up on these cars.

Second (if first passes) would be to pull the climate control head unit out
and pull the electrical plug and make sure the pins have good continuity.
Flashing could be an electrical fault, or you may have to read the codes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:52 am 
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Year and Trim: 2003 SSEi
Almost 100% guarantee the airmix actuator is going south. It hasn't completely wet the bed yet, but it's just a matter of time. Try one or more of these links for help:

http://trialsnuts.com/ecc.pdf

1992/topic41470.html

Or from Techinfo:

post395986.html#p395986

I experienced almost identical symptoms in my 93 SSE years ago. The gear on your acutator is cracked, but there is still enough friction to move the airmix door - unless it meets resistance. When you first start up the car the ECC goes through a routine in which it drives the airmix door to the fully closed and fully open positions. It's like a calibration routine, I reckon. I suspect that at certain times the gear slips on the shaft (for whatever reason). This jacks up the calibration and the ECC thinks the door is at max heat and it may only be at 50%, for instance. Sometimes you just get lukewarm air, right?, even though you're at max heat on your ECC. Why disconnecting the battery exacerbates this problem is a mystery, but there seems to be a correlation.

Rarely is the ECC head unit or the ECC contoller at fault. Not that they can't be faulty, but the probability is in the noise level. You can do a fairly simple check by pulling out the glove box and sticking a screwdriver (or similar instrument) through the little hole in the dash brace and attempting to move the little white actuator arm. If you can move it at all, the actuator is toast. Don't go Hercules on it, but unless you do, it shouldn't move.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:16 pm 
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Thank you both for your answers.. I can't understand how the battery disconnect would cause a crack in the actuator gear, but you must be right. I'll give it a check and report back.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:38 pm 
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I don't think disconnecting the battery causes the crack, it just appears to make it worse. As I recall, no reason for why the battery disconnect affects the airmix actuator was identified but the consensus is that it does indeed do something.

Maybe when the ECC loses power, it loses it's mind and doesn't know where the door actually is. So when it goes into its calibration routine and the door hits the stop, maybe the programmer doesn't know it and continues to drive the door. There's a LOT of gear reduction in the actuator so when this happens it's possible that it splits the plastic gear to the point that it now slips on the shaft. I dunno, just speculating.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Alright... first of all, props to both of you guys for correct diagnosis. Sirius is on to something with the disconnecting battery issue - the arm probably was not in it's default location when power was disconnected, then stripped out the cheap 18 year old gear trying to recalibrate itself. Sure enough, I removed the actuator and found the main gear cracked clean, just like the photo.

HOWEVER.. Do you need to reset the system or anything? The current status is that with the new actuator in there is no arm movement whatsoever. Cycling the temp up and down does not move the actuator. Everything else seems to work normally as before, but it's like the actuator isn't receiving the signal (all of the connectors are tight) or it doesn't work.

Any thoughts, please??


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:24 pm 
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possibilities:

first of all should work right out of the box. have not seen any out of box failures on forum including my own experience.

logical to think the new/different actuator you have is faulty.

the connector from the programmer module to the actuator is not seated or has a bent pin.

some members have spliced a 12 inch section into the programmer to actuator cable to facilitate reconnecting.

if you want to insert a splice, you would have room to set the actuator on the passenger floor and watch for or listen for movement. will also facilitate inspection of connection.

yes there is a possibility that the programmer/controls have failed in connection with all the activity but would try a new actuator before going down that road.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:32 pm 
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All of the connectors seem to be in good shape, and snapped correctly into place. I did not do any splicing of the wires. The actuator does not make and movement or sound that I can hear when cycling the temp up and down. With the old actuator in it would cycle, but not all of the time, and would struggle.. due to the cracked gear. I have not changed anything else. Thank you for your continued help. Good news is, it defaults to heat (and it's a cold winter!). Bad news is, in a month or so that's going to be a problem.

I ordered the Dorman part from Rockauto: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carco ... type,10721
I chose it over the AC Delco because the sticker on the broken actuator I pulled from the car had #16141822 on it. In the tech info writeup he mentions checking the RPO codes for either C67 or CJ2. I did not have either of these listed on the sticker above the spare tire. Is it possible I ordered the wrong part?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:31 am 
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Call a Dealer parts dept. and get the correct # for your car, then you could cross ref.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:37 pm 
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i have 96 SE also. i also ordered replacement actuator from ROCK AUTO. i ordered the AC DELCO.

ROCK AUTO part no. for AC DELCO is 1571923(15-71923) described as A/C VACUUM ACTUATOR. price 60.79 plus 6,86 tax.

installed NOV. 2008. worked right out of the box and has not failed since.

EDIT: not sure what to tell you about the actuator you have. the 16141822 cross references to the 1571923 and the DORMAN does use the same 16141822. you could return the DORMAN to ROCK AUTO as faulty part and order the AC DELCO. or you could try a junk yard replacement. some members have had good luck with JY parts. i have not.

like you said, very confusing heat issue.

EDIT 2: i notice that ROCK AUTO lists actuators for both the C61 and C68 bonn. the C61 actuator is for the manual air. C68 actuator is for the electronic climate control. i suppose it is possible that the DORMAN is for the C61 although the DORMAN part number cross references to the C68 number.


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