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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:18 am 
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Year and Trim: (RIP 10/31/15) 1997 SE
05 Mercedes S500 4Matic
It's kind of amusing that a bunch of weekend-mechanic casual car enthusiasts know more about this than your service department's mechanics. Seriously, a bunch of stuff your service guys are telling you is (as Car Talk's Tom and Ray always say. . .) BO-GUS!
LISTEN to the post above, NOT the people at your service department. If you need to, PRINT the posts from this thread, and give the printout to your service guys.
It is evident that your service guys have NEVER done this type of swap before, so it isn't surprising that they're apparently scared and worried that the swap might not really work. Rest assured, it WILL WORK.
USE US to get answers to anything your service guys don't understand. Post back here with anything they're clueless about, and we'll get you answers. This swap has been done before. It works.
I don't think there is a step-by-step how-to on our forum for the specific swap you're doing, but a number of people have done it, and we can get you the answers to any areas your mechanics get stuck on. Focus on communicating with your service dept. that you are absolutely certain the engine swap will work, based on our info, and we'll answer any questions they have.

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PontiacDad at WCBF `08: "By any chance, was his name. . .Radomir?"

R.I.P. 10/31/15: 1997 SE: "Silver Shadow"
`05 Mercedes S500


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:09 am 
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As for the heater hoses, they are different. On my current motor, the heater hose fittings from the GP are smaller than the Bonnevilles. They will need to remove the fitting (1 10mm bolt in each) and swap them over. Make sure they use new o-rings. My motor is from a 2006 grand prix.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:39 am 
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you guys are all awesome. I live in a very small town in an even more remote area so we aren't crawling with applications from techs everyday. We do have one master mechanic but he isnt the one doing the swap for me (wish he was but at this point it took them 3 weeks just to get it scheduled so I'm not gonna delay any further by asking for him. If things come up I will def ask you guys. Many thanks again


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:47 am 
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Location: Space Coast, or at least it used to be
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myfirstbonnie wrote:
As for the heater hoses, they are different. On my current motor, the heater hose fittings from the GP are smaller than the Bonnevilles. They will need to remove the fitting (1 10mm bolt in each) and swap them over. Make sure they use new o-rings. My motor is from a 2006 grand prix.


Well if he is going to run the 99 alternator he will need to swap the tensioner/alternator bracket.. For what ever reason the Bonneville got the older unit through 99...lol


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:28 pm 
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So you guys ready for this amusement. I go to the shop to tell the mechanic what he needs to do to complete this swap. After telling me you guys are wrong in that the valve cover in fact does need to be removed in order to get to (something...don't rememeber what he said). The funniest part is he then says "that car doesn't have a lower intake". I immediately told them to take my car off the schedule. If you guys are ever in the northern california coast DO NOT bring your car to sport dodge to be worked on. My god I can't believe I sell cars here. So hope you guys got a laugh out of that. If any of you capable of doing this swap happen to live anywhere near here and are looking for a reason to vacation on the northern cali coast...I will pay one of you to do this for me since you guys know what your talking about. In the meantime...the car and motor are just gonna sit around I guess. It's a *dang* shame and frustrating to me but at this poing its better then letting these morons touch my car. Thanks again for everything guys. Don't know what I'm gonna do from here forward


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Where are you located, I am a little north here near Portland Oregon.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:54 pm 
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I am amazed by this... I would hate to have that service department touch any car..

Too Bad I am as far east as it gets... Do you have any friends with a garage and or tools for an engine swap? Its really not all that bad to swap a 3800 engine... I would not call it easy, but its doable...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:02 pm 
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Located in Fort Bragg in Mendocino county. Around 550 miles from Portland. Considering the fun to drive but very curvy roads and remote roads to get here it would probably be a 12ish hour drive. The other issue is that I don't own any tools or even a place to work on the thing as far as a gargage or anything. I have to park on the street at my house and don't know any friends that have a real good place either. Not making it easy on you guys I know.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:07 pm 
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In the near future I will be doing this exact swap... I will swap an L26 into a 98 Bonneville with a bad motor...

I am just astonished.... I hope they never tried to work on a 2.7 boat anchor...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:31 pm 
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So I have calmed down a bit. Went back to my service director. Told him to get our master mechanic on this (since he knows that lower intakes really do exist on this car). I assume they need gaskets since we have to swap the upper intake. The parts guy asked if we need to order gasket from 99 k series or 08 L series. I actually looked at his computer and the design does look a bit different. Do you guys know which set to order in this instance? Also which oil fliter adapter gasket? I hope I'm not showing too much of my true engine ignorance...I'm just still in shock these professional mechanics can't sort this out and they have basically asked me to find out from you guys. Perhaps you guys should be making $110 an hour for your time as our dealership does. Many thanks again too all of you for your help in getting me back on the road


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:43 pm 
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He can order that for a 99 K... Inspect the old intake around the EGR port, if its soft( check it with a pick ) Then replace the upper with a Dorman Upper Kit or an " I need Parts " Upper kit... In this case I would order it for a vin K, same goes for the oil filter adapter order the gasket for a Vin K..

And what does he mean " L " series ? The new engine should be a Series III Vin 2 L26

Just remember the motor does not need to be cracked open at all....


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:54 pm 
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might have been my mistake on the "L" series...I meant vin 2 series. This will supposedley be done Saturday. I will update you guys on Monday. Again many thanks to everyone


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:59 pm 
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If you have any more questions just ask.. I will be watching this thread... and we are glad to help..


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:34 pm 
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so just an update...previous motor seized due to upper intake being bad. Looks like somehow the holes resposible for cooling around the EGR valve were leaking coolant into one of the cylinders. So turns out motor wasn't actually seized but "hydrolocked". At any rate ordered new upper intake that wont be here til Tuesday. Will update further then


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:24 pm 
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e8r23i80c wrote:
so just an update...previous motor seized due to upper intake being bad. Looks like somehow the holes responsible for cooling around the EGR valve were leaking coolant into one of the cylinders. So turns out motor wasn't actually seized but "hydrolocked". At any rate ordered new upper intake that wont be here til Tuesday. Will update further then
You should be aware that upper intake manifold failure of the plastic around the EGR port is one of the most common failures (really THE most common failure) that these engines suffer from. Also, the lower intake manifold gaskets fail as well, and an upper intake replacement job on a Bonneville like yours should be accompanied by replacing the lower gaskets as well.
Link for step-by-step guide: http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/forum/engine/topic3591.html

All of that being said, if the engine sat hydrolocked with coolant in the cylinders for any length of time, The coolant will corrode the engine bearings, and if you put this car back into service you're running a very high risk of losing a bearing in very short order. SOME of us who fixed it as soon as the problem occurred were able to just replace the upper and lower gaskets and upper intake and get long and useful service from the engine. But if you let the car sit for any length of time, you're running a very high risk of losing a bearing.

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`05 Mercedes S500


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:43 am 
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In that case you need a new upper intake kit... If money is a concern I would get the Dorman Upper intake kit... It will have all of the gaskets and injector O rings and the like included..


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Thanks Bugsi. Old motor has 178k on it so I'm sticking with putting the newer vin2 series 3 motor in with a new upper intake for the '99. I know this might not be the proper thread as new motor that's going in is series 3 but just throwing out there another question since you recommended it...does the series 3 have issues with lower intake as well? Motor has 108k on it from an '08 GP so should I go ahead and have that replaced or should it be fine? Also thanks JRS3800. Already ordered a kit from Napa but not sure which kind. I just got the one that was $124 cost to the dealership.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:04 pm 
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I'll bet my money you will get a Dorman Kit... Might not have dorman written on it, but I will bet thats what it is..

I would leave the lower gaskets alone for the time being... Its an 08 motor, so it will have the aluminum lower intake gaskets and should not degrade... Flush it out good and use fresh happy coolant...

And make sure they leave the 08 balancer on the motor.. Its a better design.. Both flywheels will be balanced the same, it will come down to what bolt pattern the old motor had... Your torque converter is a tad smaller, some of the newer flywheels had both the larger and smaller bolt pattern... If the new motor has both bolt patterns on the flywheel you'll be fine to leave it alone.. If not and it needs to be swapped, no worries as both have the same service balance.. also its possible to get the flywheel 180* off... If they have to swap the flywheel they need to make sure the holes line up 100%...

If there is anything else just ask..


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:20 am 
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e8r23i80c wrote:
does the series 3 have issues with lower intake as well?
There is something (but I don't know WHAT, maybe another member knows) that changed in the lower intake some time around 2000-ish. My wife's 2001 Grand Prix GT supposedly had an updated lower intake compared to my 1997 SE, and the *second* time my upper intake failed, my dealer also replaced my lower intake as well with the newer model. We do know that the lower gasket changed to an aluminum framed gasket which holds up better than whatever the original non-aluminum ones were, and your 2008 GP motor will have the newer aluminum ones. The upper intake design changed around the EGR stove pipe to reduce the likelihood of the common failure in the plastic manifold, but didn't the Series III get an aluminum upper intake? That will prevent the upper failure completely. So basically, I'm with Jrs3800, I'd leave the Series III as-is with respect to its intake manifolds.

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R.I.P. 10/31/15: 1997 SE: "Silver Shadow"
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:43 am 
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The L26 upper is aluminum, but the throttle body is different for the DBW. But I believe someone makes an adapter for an L36 TB to bolt up to the L26 upper.

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